Blogroll Cesession
Updated twice at the bottom.
I want to state first and foremost that the point of this post is not to be divisive. There may be hurt feelings that come from this post or the comments, and I apologize for that, but I do think it’s a discussion we need to have.
Recently, a new blogroll was started specifically for those pregnant or parenting after infertility. I posted about it last night in the LFCA even though I had misgivings. I found the idea incredibly divisive, a Sneetches moment where bloggers were popping out of the machine with stars upon thars. Instead of standing with the rest of community, they were now separating out. I posted the blurb on the LFCA because I don’t believe I have the right to censor things on the list unless they don’t fit the guidelines of the LFCA. My job is just to post.
We’ve always had a pregnancy and parenting section on the ALI blogroll because that need has always existed to find each other. But it was simply a room in a larger house that is inhabited by all people experiencing infertility. It is another stage vs. a separate existence. Just to be clear, I found the creation of the new blogroll confusing because it was literally a replica of what already exists, with the same people on both lists. I do not find it strange when someone creates, let’s say, an adoption blogroll that includes all members of the triad, since my blogroll only contains adoptive parents. What we have then are two parallel blogrolls that different people might use. What we have here are two identical blogrolls that the same people use.
The recreation of that room as a separate blogroll begs the question: should that room be removed from the ALI blogroll? Should people be removed from the list once they become pregnant or are parenting? It’s a lot of work to maintain the blogroll, and deleting people would be a simple solution. We would lose knowledge and experience; people won’t be able to find and contact someone with their diagnosis who had been successful in order to ask their questions. We would also need to lose categories such as secondary infertility.
But I’m getting a sense from the creation of a separate blogroll that this need exists.
Like the LFCA, I maintain the blogroll so I don’t believe this is a decision I can make on my own. There are over 3000 blogs on the blogroll right now, though it’s at a point where once again it needs to be cleaned up — dead links culled, people moved to new categories. I think we’re at the perfect time to make a decision on this. We certainly don’t need two identical lists, and personally, I don’t want to maintain a list that I don’t need to maintain. In other words, if I’m going to spend hours culling out dead links, I want it to be for a reason; because people want that section of the blogroll.
I am obviously biased — not only did I set up the blogroll six years ago to have parenting after IF be simply one option of many in the world of infertility, but I have always been wholly against anything that separates people. It’s what has been described as my [annoying to some] kumbayaness. But I also know that not everyone thinks like me.
I leave the decision up to you. Should people be removed from the ALI blogroll once they become pregnant or are parenting?
Updated:
I’m jumping into the comment section with this post because I think it’s a public discussion (vs. emailing people directly). So you can find more of my thoughts down there.
I think what it comes down to is not wanting to repeat work. I volunteer at a library. I’m happy to do so and get a lot out of it emotionally. I would be very cranky if someone came in after me, took all the books I reshelved back out, and then set them in place again. The librarians wouldn’t care because they see their need still fulfilled (getting the books back on the shelves). But I care. I care that I am volunteering my time, but it’s unnecessary. I could step back and allow the second volunteer to take over the position and better use my time for a need that is not currently filled. And I guess that is what I see here, from the point-of-view of the volunteer vs. the point-of-view of the blogroll user (the librarian).
Two businesses can certainly exist, selling the same products with overlapping clientele. But this is volunteering — it’s using my time for others vs. using it for myself. I enjoy doing it, just as I enjoy volunteering in the library, and I don’t have a desire to stop. But I want to use my volunteering time well: for needs that aren’t filled vs. maintaining a list that is identical to another one out there.
Second Update:
Discussion in the comment section below has brought out another reason for the new blogroll, and frankly, I think I may need to step away from the Internet for awhile to collect my thoughts. I left this comment below, but thought it important enough to move up here. When it was just a blogroll, it felt like, “feh… this is double work. How can I slip out so we’re not both doing the same thing, and I can take that time for something else.” Learning the rest of the reason for the blogroll has now made me — frankly — angry. To have my ideas used in this way.
Personally, hearing that one of the points of PAIL is to create a separate ICLW event makes it worse. Is the point to simply copy everything I’ve done to try to create community and make the inverse of it — something divisive? I have to admit that while I wasn’t hurt per se before this point, I am now angry to hear my ideas taken and twisted into something exclusive. This absolutely doesn’t have my support in the least if that is one of the reasons to create the list. And frankly, for the people who are supporting it, I don’t fully understand how people can talk about the desire for inclusivity, protection of ideas, supporting one another, and then jump into this project. I truly wish the creator of this list had come up with her own ideas for building community rather than taking my own and twisting them to form something I would be wholly against. My desire is to always build bridges, not to dig moats.
156 comments
Mel – I’m frankly a little confused and feel like I’m not firing on all pistons today…. So my two cents…you do a fabulous job at organizing the community. Whatever works for you will be fine. 🙂 <3
Oh, Mel. I am deeply sorry that this has hurt you. You have done so much for me and the IF communtity at large. I am certain that without your energy and brainstorming, I’d still be floudering out in the internet without a place to ground myself. I know it isn’t said enough, but thank you for all that you do.
I still participate in ICLW and still try to follow/support those still in the trenches. I definitely haven’t forgotten my beginnings and do want to help when I can.
And I did join PAIL a few days ago. My thought was that it would be a nice way to gain more readership. My blog has been hit with a new name/address and a baby, which I am feeling through lack of comments and traffic. PAIL is a small group thus far, and I thought it would be manageable. There was no feeling for me of being better than others because I parent; no thought that I no longer want to associate with those still ttc.
I thought of PAIL more like a club on the main campus. Not everyone belongs to every club, as each person has different needs and interests, but they are all still part of the same campus as a whole. People get to pick and choose for themselves in which clubs they want to participate. (For example, I was a member of the Asian American club in high school because that was where my friends went during lunch!) For me, clubs were not exclusive, all could join if they wanted.
I saw PAIL the same way. I considered it just another group to which I could belong (not unlike the multiples group, preemie group, and CP group I am already involved in). Joining one group doesn’t necessarily mean I want to leave the others. A piece of me is a part of all those groups, yet not a single one represents my entire reality.
I am not reading the comments on this post, before I opine (But I am itching to do so.)
I went on PAIL…but I did not really mean to offend or create some alternative universe for myself.
I am happy being on your blogroll (I think I am listed under unexplained infertility). Or I am listed by my old moniker/blog.
I have never felt alienated because I am now mothering. Never.
I never left reading blogs because the authors were pregnant or parenting, and I think that will NEVER EVER be the cause for my quitting reading a blog.
I just thought that it was another listing, and did not really see some big negative coming out of it. Obviously, I did not really think it thaaaat deeply as you have.
I would never quit your blogroll or stop hanging around SQ.
Now can I go read the comments. I am sure they are more persuasive and better-put than mine.
I never meant to create an alternative to you. That’s it. It never ever crossed my mind.
xo
Okay, I just read the comments.
a: Ouch, don’t hit me with that pitchfork…that hurts.
And Mel: I have never ever underestimated the work you have done in the ALI blogosphere, and what you continue to do.
Also, well, the contention that those who joined PAIL was because the normal ALI blogosphere was not serving them….I can’t accept that for myself. I just thought it was a great way to connect. I have signed up for PAIL, but I haven’t signed up for everything that it intends to do. I do ICLW, CDLC and Show and Tell with you, but I can never do Grateful Said – not because, I don’t get awesome comments, but because I get too many awesome comments. Similarly, when I went on PAIL, I really did not consider too deeply if I would be involved or would like to involve in everything that is stated.
I am very sorry for this. I don’t think I ever wanted to offend you. And please don’t generalize about why people went on PAIL.
There are so many activities that are hosted by several bloggers in the blogosphere, and so many people participate. I never figured that Elphie’s activity would be considered colliding.
I feel like I’m totally missing something here. I guess I’m not as involved in the community as I might have thought since I’m not sure where PAIL came from, where it is, or what the heck is going on.
Personally, I’m pregnant, all known indicators say that I’m going to have 2 babies this summer. We only need to fear that itty bitty possibility of the unknown that might take it away from me like it did last time.
When those babies are safely in my arms, I’m going to feel like I’m no longer a member of the ALI community, but that’s ok because I’ll find a mommy community to belong to. My feelings won’t be hurt if I’m removed from ALI blogrolls and if other Miscarriage Mamas are done following me. The subject of my blog is going to change so it’s only logical that my blog categorization changes as well.
Patooy! I did not just jinx myself by claiming I’ll safely make it to parenthood! No jinx, NO JINX!!!
Ok so I don’t really keep up too much with most of the IF blogging anymore but this surprises me. Whatever the intent or what ever happens I just wanted to say Mel that I really appreciate all you’ve done to make a community here. I’m so glad to have come across your blog all those years ago.
I don’t have IF, but my SIL does. 7 years, multiple surgeries, drugs, and treatments, no baby. She doesn’t blog, and to my knowledge, doesn’t read IF blogs either. I read IF blogs to learn, to grow, and to offer her as much support as I possibly can-it’s made me a much better person for what I’ve learned. I found your blog about 2 years ago, and loved it so I kept coming back. I’m sorry this is hurting you, and I hope it can all be worked out in a way that uses more glue than knives.
Wow. Hmm. I saw the PAIL thing gathering momentum, but personaly did not feel the need to join. I too think it is just a duplicate, even though apparently there was just an idea, an invitation, and a massive join-me movement. (BTW, if you ever have the occasion to read Join Me by Danny Wallace, do it, it’s a very funny book. Based on a real person with very peculiar ideas. Danny also wrote Yes Man, which as with Join Me, was an actual idea of his that he carried out.)
I can understand if you would want to take some time off, to clear up your head and heart. But I would be very sorry to have you feel unappreciated or taken for granted or unvalued, because you do mean a lot for a lot of people, even though we do not tell you this enough.
I doubt Pail’s idea was to be divisive, but it ended up being so. I am sorry YOU ended up having your feelings hurt enough to need time off. Know that we will miss you during this time off. And even though you are upset now, please don’t deprive all of us of your writing, come back when you can and share your thoughts again with us.
Thinking of you and wishing you all the best,
Mina
Mel, to me the most important thing I can say here is how deeply, deeply, abidingly grateful I am for the work you do. Even though I think I know how very much work it is, I know in my heart I am underestimating. Thank you.
I hope you will keep your blogroll as it is, though I understand the impulse not to. As a practical matter, I have found it very useful to look at pregnant/parenting blogs in various areas of the blogroll, even (especially?) when not getting pregnant myself. Looking down the list of Endo blogs marked “parenting” and looking at who got their via IVF gave me courage to go forward with it myself (with happy results). Doing the same in the GLBT room gave me a different kind of courage, just as needed.
It’s hard to choose the thing I am most grateful for about your many projects, but if I had to, I’d pick the almost superhuman level of inclusiveness that radiates from them all. As a subfertile lesbian who’s not opposed to the medical orthodoxy (mostly), I am keenly aware of the many communities I don’t fit into. The first time someone directed me to your place, I assumed this was one more nice club I could visit but not join, and even so, I was happy for all the knowledge I could glean. When Smart One Kym sent my blog to the LFCA as a new blog, I couldn’t believe that I was really allowed in (and it took me a while to realize no one was going to come tell me I wasn’t). I’ve spent a lot of my life feeling outside of big groups — not always rejected with hostility, just…not applicable — and belonging to this one means a lot to me. I am having trouble saying this how I want to; I wish I could just hug you and shower you with brownies to show you.
Whatever the intentions or not of the other group’s organizer(s), I am so sorry that you are feeling hurt and under-appreciated. You are wonderful, and the work you do is a gift to the world. For real.
*there*
You can tell I really mean it when I start screwing up my there/their/they’res. Just don’t tell my students.
For me the bottom line is that you are a volunteer. So first and foremost you need to do what works best for you. Secondly, this place is, pardon the expression, your “baby”. Your gut led you to create it and your gut led you to all the decisions that have made this community what it is. Therefore, I trust and support whatever decision you come to on this.
I should have prefaced this by saying that my blog is no longer active, I am now parenting and have decided that I will not be pursuing pregnancy again. However, I still read almost daily and consult the parenting section of the blogroll frequently for tips and information.
This was the first I had heard about PAIL and after looking into it a bit and discovering that you were not consulted in its creation I can say that it is probably not something I would use as a resource. A copy is never as sharp as the original. As stated before though, I trust your decision and what you need to do for yourself.
This is the first time I’ve heard of PAIL, and I don’t plan to join the other blogroll although I’m parenting after TTC. This reminds me, not favorably, of a time when my Fertility Friends buddy group split into two groups, parents and still trying.
I follow a few bloggers whom I feel I know pretty well after 5 or 6 years of blogging. I haven’t posted on my own password-protected blog in 5 months. But I’ve noticed over the same period of time that a lot of IF bloggers who started around my time (2005-2006) aren’t posting very frequently, either. Many of them, but not all, are parents now. It seems that a lot of bloggers run out of steam, time, or both after a few years. I think “parenting after IF” is both too broad and too narrow a subset to create a successful, sustainable blog community.
At some point perhaps I’ll come across a “budgeting and decluttering for women who are happy to be mostly happy for pregnant women now but grimace at early PG announcements on Facebook and $300 white designer high chairs on baby registries due to lingering mild resentment about having to pay for IVF or adoption out of pocket and thus not being able to afford a larger house with better storage space for the toys of multiple-birth offspring” blogroll that would fulfill all my needs. ; ) Until then I would prefer to remain where I am, looking on and commenting in a place that has brought me much support.
I love Amy’s analogy of the marathon runners: it is so apt, and it is so important for those of us still trying/waiting/hoping/praying to receive encouragement from those who have gone before us successfully.
I also think that might also shed some additional light on the points Courtney raises. It seems that the creator of PAIL had a comparatively easy journey to parenthood (I stopped reading her blog a while ago, but my recollection was she got pregnant before she ever even made it into the RE’s office). As Courtney says, it’s not a Pain Olympics, but it might shed some light as to why she doesn’t feel like sticking around to support the rest of the infertility community: her experiences may not motivate her to continue to stand on the sidelines and cheer the rest of us on.
The idea of “parenting AFTER infertility/loss” seems to based upon the mindset that, once you build your family, the scars and the pain and the insight and the compassion you gained from the experience can then be set aside: i.e., you’ve graduated from being “infertile.” I think for a lot of people whose journeys took longer and had harder tolls, it’s not possible to simply leave it all behind: and that’s the magic of your blogroll and community here.
looks like you have a lot of comments to read through… so if you make it to mine… I have a few mixed thoughts. I haven’t blogged in quite some time. Just didn’t really have much to say and didn’t really fit in now that I have a child. I don’t know the author of PAIL, I doubt she meant any harm. I doubt she didn’t experience pain in IF as the previous commenter suggests. I know I experienced a lot of pain and heartache in my journey, but now I am in a different place. I comment on blogs of previous friends I made who are still in the throes of infertility, tried to reach out to others, but it just seemed weird.–I didn’t want them to feel bad if they clicked back to my blog and saw la la land, and I didn’t know if I would do more harm than good by stopping in. I started my blog mainly due to my IF, and I don’t really feel a draw to continue blogging at this time. Others may feel differently and I can see why they are drawn to the PAIL site. I don’t know that I would fit in there either bc I didn’t breastfeed, wasn’t pregnant, etc. Who knows. I think if people want to stay on your blogroll and you are willing to move them around–do it. If you want to remove them, I guess you could do that too–but as you know we are all so different. Some would feel comfortable staying and want to stay, others would naturally move on, or others would want to have their blog stay on as a help to others looking for hope.
Thanks for all you have done and continue to do for the ALI community. One off shoot is probably that you inspired this blogger to create a group where others like herself would be able to find support and friendship. Kudos to you for doing that.
@Tara, I disagree. I think the purpose of PAIL or of any group loosely defined as parenting/pregnant after infertility is to acknowledge that it is VERY different. If you read most of the responses to Elphaba’s query about starting it, none of us feels like we belong anywhere anymore. We’re beyond the pale in the ALI community, yet we feel uncomfortable or even fraudulent with mothers who had more conventional journeys to parenthood.
I think that beyond the issue of Mel’s blogroll and the appropriateness of PAIL, the community needs to have an honest discussion on what it’s like to be “other” once you build your family. I’m coming to the conclusion that IF is a permanent state of mind no matter how many children you have or where you are in your journey.
Mel- I have to say, as a blogger that has been with you since the begininning (though I don’t blog much) this is all crazy. I have been on your blog roll since the beginning. I could be in a number of your catergories, matter of fact I think you have moved me around and I have landed in the “infertility with other issues”. My real diagnosis is RPL (9 pregnancies!) though I am Type 1 diabetic as well.
I joined PAIL not to take anything away from you or your roll. Not in any way at all. It was put out there and I thought “oh another way to find other RPL woman who I could maybe encourage”. I thought nothing more of it in any way, shape or form. I don’t think I need to defend myself but reading through your comments. WOW!!!
I am with several others that are on the PAIL list and love you to death. We thought nothing more. I don’t participate in ICWL or however you write it. I do read and comment each and every day. I read the LFCA every week and try to encourage people as well.
This whole conversation seems a bit crazy. I am pretty computer handicapped as far as blogging, code, etc. goes but I am willing to help with things if I can.
To borrow from the wording of some personal emails and comments on my ‘about’ page that I have received this morning, I’m the “asshole” who “dared” to suggest an ICLW-type event for PAIL.
I never blogged about IF or loss, and I still don’t. I didn’t have the courage, and I still don’t. I didn’t even know this community existed until I was finally pregnant ‘for keeps’. I found ALI blogs and started reading for support after being treated brutally by my only IRL IF friend during my second miscarriage and most recent pregnancy.
I didn’t know about the blogroll organization on this site, or that ICLW was unique to it. Like a commenter above said, I thought it was widespread across the blogosphere. I read this post last night and realizing I had made a faux pas promptly asked to be added to Mel’s blogroll and learned about more about the ins and outs of ICLW.
I stumbled on PAIL. It gave me some courage. What I was hoping for, honestly, was some friends. Some days, reading about where I was 2-3 years ago is too much, just like reading about where I am NOW would have been too much for me then. I was hoping to add a few blogs that reflected my day-to-day reality to my reading. All I wanted (by suggesting a ‘meet and greet’ event), and desperately need, was to meet people in the place that I’m in so that I can begin to heal the place that I was. The women I have found over the last 2 years have been a source of support I can’t begin to quantify. I was only looking speak up a little, be heard a little, and listen to many more voices.
So, for those of you who sent me hurtful, ugly messages, shame on you. There is no reasonable justification, and I didn’t deserve that. I was just looking for a safe place, for where I am now in my journey. Now, more than ever, I feel like I don’t belong.
It’s taken me a while to sort any personal feelings I have about this and see it all for what it is. So here I go, as fair as I possibly can.
The issues surrounding parenting after infertility are real, as is the awkwardness of knowing how to continue to participate in this blogging community while still feeling able to share your own life without hurting anyone or chasing them away. The fact that so many attached themselves to PAIL so readily shows how many women are struggling with these very issues, as do so many comments here. PAIL is fulfilling a need that for too long has been, if not neglected, at least a little taboo to talk about. Okay. Fine.
If I were Mel, no, scratch that.
On Mel’s behalf, however, I find it disappointing and more than a little insulting that so many bloggers, women who have used Mel, all she’s created at Stirrup Queens and her ongoing and exhaustive efforts to keep the support for everyone and talk about anything going, never even thought to check her blog roll for parenting after infertility blogs. Nor did it occur to anyone to say to her, “hey, there’s a huge need not being met, what do you think we can do about that?” I can understand completely how Mel was hurt by the total lack of thought and consideration given to her contributions when she spends so much of her life thinking and considering how to give to this community, and how that hurt began to feel like betrayal as she saw her ideas being used without her knowledge.
I think it sucks that it’s all come to this, and I do hope cooler heads will prevail in a couple days and no hard feelings will linger….except mine for one poster way, way above who used such a nasty, cold tone in one of her phrases that I’ve made a note to never read her blog or regard her comments anywhere.
And perhaps sometime soon we can engage in a larger discussion of why the sentiments that lead to PAIL being formed exist and whether there really is a way to rectify what happens if you finally get your baby with what’s happening to those who haven’t yet or won’t.
It seems clear from this comment thread why so many parenting IFers feel they don’t belong. The judgement is astonishing. The worst are comments about levels of pain being less for some people than others. OMG! The levels that could go to and how unacceptable that is! Can you imagine if we started comparing the pain of a mother losing her child at different stages? The presumptuousness is shocking! And to read that people sent personal attacks to SRB? As someone who relied on this community as a reader but only started a blog after becoming a parent, I felt shy but not pushed away. I honestly didn’t know what it was like to click on a link to a parenting blog since I didn’t blog during my darkest IF days. I was tentative. Now I feel alienated. I wanted to be part of the IF community because life is not all roses, and mommy bloggers–even those who deal with depression and the like–are often not quite as able to relate to the fear and pain that is the shadow of IF, and in my case, other significant loss as well. But to come here with hope and pain and to be told that my pain is not enough? Shame on you. I don’t think the divisiveness is Mel’s fault. Not at all. But it’s there, and PAIL answered it before it created it.
I understand that you are hurt that someone else wants to do what you’ve already done. You have put a lot of work into it, no one denies that… however, the internet is a free place… people can choose where they want to go.. they can add to what exists, or improve upon it. It’s not personal. Just like adding a new blog about infertility might double up on the ideas mentioned in someone else’s blog doesn’t negate the value.
Don’t create drama… we are all better than that.
I’d like to also add how absolutely offended and pissed off I am at the many commenters who dared to start comparing the “ease” of their infertility/TTC journey to anyone else’s.
How dare you all. We are all women, struggling/or having struggled with loss, pain and inability to conceive on the timeline that our bodies should be able to. Alienating others for the comparative ease or hardship is shameful. I’m happy to not expose myself to that.
Wow! The hackles seem to be rising for everyone. Melissa, I consider you my personal hero. You have provided me a place to be when no one else around me understood. You have walked me through the treatments that I have had to date with all your articles, and I could not have done it without you. Thank you!
That being said, I don’t think PAIL was an intentional effort to hurt or divide, I am not part of it, nor do I know anyone that is, but I like to believe that we would all treat each other better than that. I can completely understand why it’s existence would be painful, and I think that I would have reacted in the same way. Just take it a day at at a time, and don’t let it wear you down.
As ffar as you separating the lists…I personally never click away from parenting blogs unless I just don’t “click” with the person. In fact I NEED those parenting blogs on your list. Sometimes it is so easy to become wrapped up in treatments and appointments that the light at the end of the tunnel becomes harder to acknowledge. I need to be reminded sometimes that people make it to the other side, that there is life after infertility whether that is parenting, traveling or any other option. In fact I need that more now than ever as we enter our first IUI cycle.
I am so sorry that you have been hurt, and I hope healing will be easy for you, but after reading these comments, I don’t think it will be. Good luck!
I started my relationship with your blog when I was looking for answers when TTC, and I found ICLW, it was great to be able to find current, up to date posts about struggling with TTC. I participated a few times and added new blogs to my list and at the same time, found comfort. Then I got pregnant and felt like I didn’t belong. I only spent a few months in IF hell. We got pregnant naturally. So I was in limbo. I wasn’t blissfully unaware of issues, like many mommy blogs out there, and I wasn’t sure I had earned a spot on your blogroll or even to be on ICLW. So I stopped participating, I still check the list every month, and read parenting after IF blogs, but I am too afraid of hurting someone who clicks on my page to reply to a comment to participate anymore. PAIL seemed like a place where I felt like I belonged. I joined before the comment leaving post.. I won’t leave PAIL because of it, because I think Elphie’s intentions were pure. I would love to check the blog roll and find parenting blogs here, but every time I do, Most of the time I find out of date, expired or just plain wrong blogs. I guess I should have reported them, but I just hadn’t had the time. I don’t think she’s replacing you, or intending to, just tryng to solve her problem of not feeling like she belonged, and found out that a lot of others feel that way too. I think you need to talk to her, clear the air. I’m sure there’s a much more positive way to resolve this, and everyone can find a place to be, even if they exist in both places. There are thousands of programs, like nablopomo, i heart faces, and tons of blogrolls that at heart all have the same purpose. Not to compete… but to bring readers, and posters together under a common purpose.
I don’t ever see your blog being replaced, you provide such a valuable resource in so many different ways. I don’t see that as the intended purpose either.
I joined the PAIL blogroll.
But I don’t regret it. I feel bad if it hurt someone, it was not the intention. If anything I joined it to avoid hurting people. I remember how hard it was to continue to follow people after pregnancy and then with the focus of their blog shifting to being a mom. That’s why I joined PAIL, because I felt like it was one place where I could celebrate my baby and discuss IF topics.
I am not asking for anyone’s sympathy, but it can be difficult to find someone in that same situation.
To be honest, I did not know there was a blogroll for parenting after IF. I now do and would love to become a part of that as well.
I truly do apologize if someone’s feelings were hurt.
And I can understand not wanting to do double work, but if you take the parenting after IF and loss section off of the blogroll, isn’t that being divisive?
I didn’t want to read all the comments because I don’t want to be upset. I joined PAIL because a) I didn’t even know about a parenting after IF room but also because I still feel every day that I am an infertile blogger but now I am an infertile blogger who is pregnant. I fortunately have never had awful anon comments but so many people have and literally have stopped blogging and moved away because they didn’t want to upset anyone. And I find that to be the worst thing of all. They worked their arses off to get pregnant and a few super super bitter people have taken that away from them. PAIL reminds people of where we came from. Half of my blog posts are still about infertility. I am trying to advocate IF at home in Oz but it is hard. I could never have done what you did and still do for IF. I didn’t even see it as being different from the ALI it was just allowing the ALI community somewhere to go once they did fall pregnant rather than just leaving it. I still scour the ALI blogroll and add new people because I am all about supporting those in the trenches (this is seriously the most wonkiest worded comment ever).
Overall I don’t think anyone ever had the intention of leaving ALI but rather cementing their place and still feeling they had a role in ALI rather than not being able to blog anymore because they were pregnant.
Can’t we all live together? I hope so. Because I would have been lost alone and stranded without my infertile island community.
Everyone remember why we were here in the first place!
It makes me so sad that this is even a discussion, but I speak as a person who has sunbeams shooting out of my a*& due to my amazing good luck at being able to have the family that I do.
When I was lost, alone, and frustrated, I found this community and the support it gave me was more amazing than anything I have in “real” life. I already had one child, so I felt like something of an imposter, but nobody ever made me feel like I didn’t belong or that I was asking too much.
In addition, the women I have met and follow through these blogrolls are daily inspirations to me. I admire them so much and, I don’t want to make them sound like this is their only role because they do so much more, but they help me to really appreciate what I have been lucky enough to have – even though it was so hard to achieve.
It’s unfortunate that this is such a volatile and emotional subject; I never once begrudged anyone a pregnancy or child, but perhaps that is because I had one before I even found out I had medical issues. There is so much divisiveness that already exists in our world and we all need each other. I really hope that we can find a way to all support each other. If you see that my blog talks about my children and that makes you uncomfortable, then please don’t feel like you need to stop by. But if you want encouragement or support from someone who has been through so many of these experiences, I’m here. I’m an MTHFR with repeat pregnancy losses. I will always feel that pain even through my happiness and good fortune. I will never lose sight of the amazing women who were with me every step of the way, and I only hope others will let me support them as well.
Whoa I read the comments. Stupid stupid Chon.
For anyone that thinks that this was an effort to undermine Mel you are so very mistaken. As some of the other commenter’s suggested this was an idea that sprung out of internal discussion about where we fit it once we get a BFP or start parenting.
Clearly from number of enthusiastic responses PAIL was born out the idea that we didn’t know where we belonged any more. It literally happened on one day.
It wasn’t about sabotaging one woman’s, quite frankly brilliant efforts in creating a society for women struggling with infertility and loss. It was, for me about remaining in that society to continue helping people struggling and being able to write freely of pregnancy and parenting without alienating others. It wasn’t about an exclusive clique – I am already in that exclusive clique the one that has 1 in 6 sufferers called IF and the other one that is 1 in 4 called miscarriage.
To start slinging mud at each other is as one person said much more divisive that simply creating a button that says “hey I am infertile but I am a mum / pregnant” because for me that is what PAIL is. What hurts me is when I have supported people through their journey and when they get pregnant they leave simply because they don’t know how to blog any more without hurting others. Isn’t that sad?
Also I am part of cyclesista and I was going to join faces of loss / faces of hope which are also two other blogrolls that exist (as far as I am aware) outside the original ALI blogroll.
No one ever intended for PAIL to offend, hurt or alienate. I was simply excited about connecting with other pregnant infertility sufferers that had graduated to the other side and still felt that I had a place in this amazing community.
Now I feel like I am supposed to choose between two political parties with cronies campaigning against one another. When all I want is a place to belong.
Oh, Mel. I’m so sorry that this has happened, when I know that the one thing you stand for above all others is inclusiveness. There is good discussion here, sure, but the fact that it has also devolved into the Pain Olympics is counterproductive and divisive.
BTW, I noticed your play on words with “cesession” vs “secession.” As in “stop!” As in “cess” and as in “tax.”
And so I ask, what is a reasonable tax for an online community to pay? I guess it’s hard to tax something that’s been freely given.
I am so late to the party that I am mortified , and so sad that your heart is hurtimg because of this. I had never heard of PAIL until 15 minutes Ago when I read another blog, followed it over and then the tears started.
I am parenting after IF..I want to stay on the blogroll the same way I always have. I am 42 years old and while not actively ttc again, hope springs eternal…and I refuse to be moved. I started here on the internet right around the time you did, you found me and inspired me, supported me and motivated me. I will do NOTHING less for you.
Plus we don’t need seperate places, that’s our problem as a country, as a people, as a gender sometimes….we don’t need seperate rooms we need to stand in the same place with one another and help each other.
Infertility is so exclusive just by its very nature…it makes us stand outside . Why in the world would we choose to do that to each other after all of us have been (and are currently ) going through???
I love you Mel and support you and your vision in this.
I must say I’m kind of disappointed by the comments on here. I can clearly see both sides of this issue. Mel has every right to feel the way she does. This community is her baby and she has done amazing things for it. But I know that Elphaba meant no harm. She would never intentionally hurt Mel or make anyone feel like they could not be part of the community. She is just trying to find a way to feel like she (and others of course) can belong again and I understand that.
But I can’t believe some of the hurtful comments I’ve read on here. Comments about how she didn’t really go through infertility and based on the fact that she never had to use IF meds she doesn’t understand what this community is really about. It makes me sad that we have resorted to belittling another’s struggles.
I’ve worked on and debated typing this up all day. But I feel it needs to be said. I’m sorry if I offend you, I’m simply sharing my thoughts and opinions.
I’m going to admit, I was hurt too by the creation of the PAIL blogroll. I follow many of the ladies that have joined. I’ve read their blogs and followed along on twitter with them before they ever conceived their babies. I read through their pregnancies. I read through their birth stories. I’ve read through their struggles and joys parenting. It was a HUGE slap in the face to me to read about a new blog roll and new community building activities that I wouldn’t be able to take part in because I’m not in the PAIL category. Its like in real life… when your friends who know or don’t know about your infertility all have babies and plan play dates with each other and don’t bother to invite you since “you don’t have any kids”. I’m just not invited to the party anymore because I’m different soley because I don’t have children.
I too feel out of place in the ALI blogosphere. I’m at a stalemate. I’m not actively pursuing treatments or adoption, nor have we decided to live childfree. I don’t feel like I really fit in anywhere, but I keep blogging for me. I keep blogging because I know one day I’ll look back and be thankful I have my thoughts from in the moment. I’m part of this community for just that… to be part of a community of like minded people, no matter what stage they’re at in this journey. I don’t unfollow once you’ve reached a certain milestone.
I’ve never been part of the ‘in crowd’. I don’t know why this should be any different. I just wish the last few weeks people could’ve been more thoughtful with, more or better communication. Seeing as I read along with PAIL starting, it wasn’t very well thought through it seemed very spur of the moment.
No one whose poured so much of their soul into building up of community should feel like you do right now, Mel. I thank you for all that you do and wish you a speedy return!
Holy crap, am I reading comments from yet another news article about IVF?
All levity aside, I’m bummed that this is going on, and I hope that some kind of solution will come out of this situation.
You know what bothers me the most? All the people who have come here saying they joined PAIL and it isn’t exclusive and why can’t we all get along yet the comments over on Elphaba’s blog are insinuating that Mel is creating drama and “they (meaning people here) take things too seriously.” So people are saying one thing here and then slinging mud over there. Praising Elphaba for showing restraint and not going off over here. That’s not ok.
I’ve thought about this a lot. I’m still struggling with how to verbalize how I feel about it. Mel gave me a place to not feel like a freak about my infertility. Being a lesbian didn’t matter, I knew I was accepted here. This site is always the first one I give out when a friend confides in me about battling infertility. Not Resolve. HERE. And my issue is – Mel heads this community, but it’s OUR community and if we want to make it better it’s just as much our responsibility to cultivate it with her as it is hers. And I feel like people seemed to feel “excluded” and basically took their football and went home so to speak. Left and created their own space instead of improving the existing one. And never paused to consider how it might hurt Mel or the community by doing so.
Mel, keep doing what you’re doing. I will gladly participate in discussions in ways to make this place home for as many as want to be home here. You are the torch bearer, and I will follow you.
I have to agree with k. I wish this didn’t upset me as much as it did, and I’ve tried to tell myself it’s just silly drama, but this has broken my heart and ended my desire to blog openly in this community, at least for now.
The hurtful comments on both sides are cruel and unnecessary. I’ve tried to see this from both sides, but to hear that because I’m hurt at being excluded, I’m just a hormonal drama queen is too much. To the woman who posted that, I suspect that you were once in the midst of medicated hormonal fuelled grief as well, and if you weren’t you know someone who was.
Let’s face it, if you’re pregnant or parenting post IF, you win (at least on some level, I’m not trying to discount sif or the different challenges of adoption etc). Why then, turn around and discount what are true feelings of exclusion, intended or not, fear of never overcoming IF, longing for what you have as just ravings of bitchy women? Regardless of where you stand on the blog roll issue, you once stood where many of us still stand, I would have expected more.
It seems to me as if the comments on this post are saying one thing from all sides: I don’t want to be excluded. Parenting after IF people don’t want to be excluded from getting support from peers, but so many others on the ALI spectrum don’t want to be excluded either: what’s been so disturbing is the number of people who have said they just don’t feel like the fit in somewhere, and this has made them feel worse.
Maybe a more productive discussion to have is: how can we as a group, support each other as peers (TTC, testing, cycling, pregnant, going through loss, living childless/childfree after IF/loss) but also as members of the same overall organization so there is less feeling of exclusion? What can be done within the existing framework, built so incredibly through Mel’s hard work, to resolve some of the issues here?
Please please don’t cease the blogroll! I don’t want to join PAIL and if you cease the Parenting room of your blog roll I will sort of disappear and I really will feel like I don’t belong – something I have never felt since finding this community.
I personally don’t understand the need for the new PAIL roll, the argument about not wanting IF ers to stumble across their blogs during ICLW because if you simply put ‘ parenting’ ad one of the three wterms to describe your blog then people know not to click across unless they want to read about parenting.
Mel, I understand why you feel like you are pouting in hours of work for no reason, butt the fact is, it’s not for no reason. There are still plenty of people who want to stay on your blogroll. To be honest, I’d feel angry if I lost my space on yore blog roll just because another blogroll was started.
Please excuse typos, commenting from my phone!
I keep coming back here wanting to leave a comment. So here I am. Again. I will press “submit” today.
I guess I just don’t understand. I don’t understand where the hateful and malicious comments are coming from. I can clearly see both sides. I do not think that Elphaba is being malicious or intentionally hurtful, and I see that people feel a need to have a ‘safe’ space where they can talk about the challenges of parenting after IF without having to censor themselves. I have struggled with that same need for a number of years now, though it’s really come to the forefront as we deal with failed treatments again for #2.
But I also see how hurtful it is for you, Mel, who has spent the past 6 working your ass off on projects that are inclusive of ALL people in this community.
I don’t really know how to fix it, either. I am sad and hurt that there is so much pain and emotion in this, and I wish it was different.
What I love most about you, Mel, is your inclusivity. This site is truly a safe place to come whether you’re a parent after adoption, infertility, are trying to get pregnant, are worried that you are infertile, or even if you have no issues with IF but someone you know is struggling with issues. You treat everyone here with love and respect, and you inspire me daily to be the same way. And I think if there was no space for me here, in this community, my blogging days would be over.
Love you, sweetie. I’m so sorry this has brought you so much hurt.
xoxo
I joined the PAIL list.
I did so becuase I’ve been having an extremely difficult time posting, during this pregnancy. But there have been SO many things I’ve wanted to write about. I literally have dozens of posts in the ‘draft’ stage becasue I couldn’t hit the publish button for fear of alienating my friends (yes, I consider all my readers my friends) who are still in the trenches.
And then, after what I watched Mo go through, with the tragic loss of Nadav, I have been almost paralyzed in terms of posting.
The other thing is that I didn’t realized there WAS ALREADY a place for parenting/pregnancy after IF. I think it was MO who said that when she joined up she was entrenched in the TTC and Loss sections. That was my story too. Is my story.
I honestly thought, wow, Elphie is doing a great thing here, in creating an off-shoot of Mel’s AMAZING work. That is really great for those of us that are in this situation.
I’m sorry Mel, for the hurt. I’m sorry Elphie that you are dealing with all of this too. I don’t think you (Elphie) meant anything less than caring and consideration for those of us that are like you — either pregnant after IF or currently parenting.
Someone else said (I think it was Esperazna or Jjirrafe) that it’s hard to talk about the challenges of a pregnancy, or a newborn, with someone who is still battling IF. I remember at times thinking to myself (after reading someone’s ‘complaint’ about pregnancy) I would GLADLY trade places with you … and now, here I am. 26 weeks pregnant and I am SCARED SHITTLESS to talk about what is going on with me … because I don’t want to hurt anyone else.
Thank you Mel for what you do. Again, I’m sorry this has caused so much pain.
MJ
@jjiraffe: Bingo! You’ve nailed it with this observation: “It seems to me as if the comments on this post are saying one thing from all sides: I don’t want to be excluded. Parenting after IF people don’t want to be excluded from getting support from peers, but so many others on the ALI spectrum don’t want to be excluded either: what’s been so disturbing is the number of people who have said they just don’t feel like the fit in somewhere, and this has made them feel worse.”
I’m one of “the others on the ALI spectrum” and have observed with fascination this discussion. It is a lesson in the deep wounds, the painful alientation caused by infertility. I’ve taken and slung my own barbs in the past and it hasn’t been fun. A few of us have carved out a small niche in the blogosphere for those who don’t parent after infertility as a way to shine a light on another path, but I still come back here from time to time since it’s where it all began for me.
Regardless of where we are on the ALI spectrum, our recovery is a non-linear process. Some of us come to terms faster than others. As one of the older members of this community, I can truly say that it takes much hard work to reconcile powerful emotions, loss and grief. Ultimately peace and acceptance comes from within — but it sure helps speed the process when we can give each other space and be nice to each other. So, if there’s one thing this entire discussion has reminded me it’s this: “be nice — and bring enough cupcakes for everyone.”
I am at a loss…I really don’t know what to say. I only recently joined the ALI blogroll as I wasn’t sure I wanted to belong after having my baby via IVF. However, Mel says, “if you think you might belong here, you probably do.” So I submitted my blog, after changing the title and not the URL. I have only been blogging for a year and a half so this is all so new to me. When Elphie opted for the PAIL blogroll, I jumped on it. Mostly because Elphie and I went through our pregnancies together. And the majority of the discussion was with women who recently gave birth.
I did not join to hurt anyone, but to get my blog out there in another place to connect more with the community. I will admit it was nice to see an increase in readership and comments. I have never participated in ILCW because I’m simply not disciplined enough. I like Mrs D commented above found my reading list from other blogs and comments. I used Mel’s list to find the first few after seeing a link on someone’s blog.
I’m happy to stay on both lists, but those of you running these lists and managing all of them have to make that decision. I may have my baby, but in a few months we’ll be starting treatment again with hope for more children. So I’ll be PAIL and TTC and IF all in the same boat. I really have no idea where I fit in. I still blog about IF and treatments and what it took to get my baby, and what it’s going to take to get more babies, if we’re lucky again.
I don’t doubt what Mel does is phenomenal. I’ve seen her list and it is extremely intimidating. For the first time this year I participated in the Creme de la Creme, however because I submitted late, my post hasn’t been added to the list yet. I can’t even imagine what it takes for Mel to maintain the blog roll and do stuff like ILCW and Creme de la Creme, and have a life outside of all of this.
I joined both lists because I thought it would help get my story out there. If I had known it was against the rules to participate in 2 blogrolls, I would never have joined. I may be a rebel without a clue, but I don’t want to intentionally hurt anyone in the process.
Mel I’m sorry your feelings were hurt and you felt your toes were stepped on. I’m sure Elphie was inspired by you and wanted to do something to give back to the community she had become a part of.
I hope this all works out and I’m sorry I’m a day late and a dollar short with my comment, but I’m glad I took the time to read through all of the comments.
Wow…I don’t know that I have anything to say that hasn’t already been said yet don’t want to remain silent. I’m a SMC so my “infertility” was circumstantial more than biological tho I do identify with many on the IF journey I would never dream of saying I know what it’s like. I conceived with my 1st IUI then miscarried in my 8th week. My RE quickly identified PCOS & low progesterone & treated immediately, my 2nd IUI resulted in my daughter…relatively easy, right? I don’t think so because my miscarriage nearly broke me & I can’t help but wonder what might have been if I’d been trying naturally with a partner…I wouldn’t have been seeing an RE, due to low progesterone & PCOS I could have experience multiple losses instead of only 1…my what ifs are many people’s reality…what’s the point of all my rambling? I’ve never felt like I fit in anywhere in the blog community …except on Mel’s blogroll. There are so many rooms & it is so inclusive I feel there is a place for me. I know mine is a story that would make some women want to punch me but it’s also a story that could be helpful or inspirational…so I’m not sure if I belong on the PAIL blogroll but I sure as shit know I belong on Mel’s.
And Mel, you rock & I’m sorry you’ve been hurt by this
Mel, I’d never have joined if I thought it would be hurtful to you – I’m so sorry for that. It did occur to me that it was a sort of duplication of the Parenting section of your blogroll, but I still joined – it seemed to me that it would somehow be less painful, now approaching my third trimester after four early miscarriages, if I had to ask to be removed from PAIL than it would be to ask to go to Pregnancy & Parenting on your list and then back to Loss if the worst should happen. I’m torn about where I’ll belong on yours if/when I get my take-home baby…I will be parenting, but I will always be an RPL girl at heart. So is it better to leave my blog in the loss room, so women with similar experiences might find me there, or to move to Parenting so it wouldn’t sting so much if they land at my blog and see that I’m “on the other side”? (rhetorical question – unless you know the answer.)
I’m sure nobody wanted to be exclusionary or divisive, even if that’s what’s happened. Before I got pregnant and started to believe it might actually stick, it felt like everyone was parenting. In my trenches, I felt excluded because we could get pregnant without assistance, just couldn’t seem to stay that way, so I didn’t quite think I fit into the infertile/treatment group. Like many others have said…once you are pregnant, it’s terrifying to post in a way that shows you’re enjoying it, yet equally terrifying to dare to admit to being terrified or uncomfortable in any way, too. I imagine parenting will be the same way…. but regardless of what happens, I would never want to walk away from the community you’ve pulled together here.
I’m so sorry your feelings were hurt. I have been visiting for ICLW for about a year, participating two or three times. I always thought it was an AMAZING idea, a great way to connect with even more infertiles going through the same thing, etc. Maybe it’s because I didn’t dig deep enough, but I am being 100% honest here- I didn’t know there was a blogroll list here! I only knew of ICLW, which I had found through other blogs I had followed, which were participating. Maybe Scrambled Eggs didn’t know either. It could have been an “honest mistake” type thing. I am only guessing at this so I could be wrong. I also found PAIL through another blogger who I follow/follows me, thanks to ICLW we had connected. So it’s like it’s come full circle.
Had I known of a blogroll here, I would have joined while TTC’ing #1, during pregnancy, and now while I have my son. And like a few other commentors, I will be TTC’ing #2 shortly, and still need that support for TTC’ing too.
I can only speak for myself here, I would only be guessing about the creator for PAIL on why she created it, but I joined because I saw it as another way to connect with people just like me. BUT, and this is important, I am more than just one version of ME. I am still infertile, I am still dealing with the scars of infertility even though my son is here, but yet I’m a mom after infertility. I joined not to exclude ANYONE, but rather to connect to more people. Not to make anyone feel like they are segregated. If there was an infertility button/sticker I could put on my blog, I would! Probably larger LOL! Because that is just as much a part of me as being a mom.
I can see why you would be upset, and like I said, maybe she honestly didn’t know. I can see why you don’t want to do “double the work” also…. maybe things can be worked out between you two, I hope so. Because through BOTH of your efforts, I have found new blogs and readers, and sharing info and support is what we all really need, at every stage.
Sam xoxo
OOPS! I said maybe Scrambled Eggs, and I meant Runny Yolk, too many tabs open on my comp and I wasn’t paying attention! They sound the same so I can see why I messed that one up lol.
As far as I can see, I’ll be wanting to stick with you Mel. I lost my twins after IF and half a pregnancy and if the PAIL blogroll were around and I’d joined it while pregnant, I would be having to remove myself. That would hurt. It is better to be a part of something bigger than PAIL, because we never know where we’ll end up.
I wish to remain on your blogroll and thank you for all your work bringing people together.
I hate to think of mel hurting. But I am all for keeping these blogs together. Maybe in a separate way so you can find new people who are going through what you are going through. But isn’t what unites us so much more than what divides us? I hope some positivity can come from this discussion.
Coincidentally, I didn’t know what PAIL was (I guess because I am not pregnant?) But I saw it listed on a blog friend’s blog and it made me feel more left out and divided and lonely and sad than ever having seen her post a post about her baby. It just doesn’t feel right. The purpose was to support and protect but it just leaves me feeling yucky inside and left out. 🙁
Totally late to the conversation and not sure that I have anything new to add. Mostly I wanted to say that this is a unique and special place for me – your blog. And I really do think of it as a hub and a touchstone. I’m parenting after IF and feel humbled to be able to do so. But I also feel strong and deep connections to this community on my own behalf, on behalf of my friends who have done domestic open adoptions, are in the midst of international adoptions, have suffered losses, and those who are in the middle of infertility treatments as we speak. And those are just my real life friends. This doesn’t account for the friends and connections that I’ve made since starting to come here and joining this community 5 years ago – in a way that supported me beyond measure.
For me, I was diagnosed with a not-often diagnosed (even rare) form of infertility…a form of a balanced translocation. When I was in the pits of hell, I had NO idea what it was and through your blog found more bloggers that had the same or similar diagnosis. I personally liked reading blogs of these same women that crossed over from the trenches to parenting via adoption, DE, DEmb, DS, PGD of own embryos, etc. OR childfree. I learned alot from these women so to simply delete these women’s experiences off the blog roll would be a total devastation to someone like me who eventually made an INFORMED decision and went forward with Donor Egg rather than PGD of own embryos. Please do not delete ANY blogs. Rather, request that bloggers CLEARLY write in their blog titles (or revise them) that their blog is now a blog after infertility. As always, thanks SOOO much for your dedication to keeping the BlogRoll…no decision is easy…wishing you peace as you make the decision.
Dear k,
You would not find my comments and mudslinging on Mel in Elphie’s blog. It would not even cross my mind. But please don’t point fingers as culprits at those who did.
My reason may not appeal to you all, but I am here for companionship, and I will never quit Mel’s space.
Please do not generalize.