Blogroll Cesession
Updated twice at the bottom.
I want to state first and foremost that the point of this post is not to be divisive. There may be hurt feelings that come from this post or the comments, and I apologize for that, but I do think it’s a discussion we need to have.
Recently, a new blogroll was started specifically for those pregnant or parenting after infertility. I posted about it last night in the LFCA even though I had misgivings. I found the idea incredibly divisive, a Sneetches moment where bloggers were popping out of the machine with stars upon thars. Instead of standing with the rest of community, they were now separating out. I posted the blurb on the LFCA because I don’t believe I have the right to censor things on the list unless they don’t fit the guidelines of the LFCA. My job is just to post.
We’ve always had a pregnancy and parenting section on the ALI blogroll because that need has always existed to find each other. But it was simply a room in a larger house that is inhabited by all people experiencing infertility. It is another stage vs. a separate existence. Just to be clear, I found the creation of the new blogroll confusing because it was literally a replica of what already exists, with the same people on both lists. I do not find it strange when someone creates, let’s say, an adoption blogroll that includes all members of the triad, since my blogroll only contains adoptive parents. What we have then are two parallel blogrolls that different people might use. What we have here are two identical blogrolls that the same people use.
The recreation of that room as a separate blogroll begs the question: should that room be removed from the ALI blogroll? Should people be removed from the list once they become pregnant or are parenting? It’s a lot of work to maintain the blogroll, and deleting people would be a simple solution. We would lose knowledge and experience; people won’t be able to find and contact someone with their diagnosis who had been successful in order to ask their questions. We would also need to lose categories such as secondary infertility.
But I’m getting a sense from the creation of a separate blogroll that this need exists.
Like the LFCA, I maintain the blogroll so I don’t believe this is a decision I can make on my own. There are over 3000 blogs on the blogroll right now, though it’s at a point where once again it needs to be cleaned up — dead links culled, people moved to new categories. I think we’re at the perfect time to make a decision on this. We certainly don’t need two identical lists, and personally, I don’t want to maintain a list that I don’t need to maintain. In other words, if I’m going to spend hours culling out dead links, I want it to be for a reason; because people want that section of the blogroll.
I am obviously biased — not only did I set up the blogroll six years ago to have parenting after IF be simply one option of many in the world of infertility, but I have always been wholly against anything that separates people. It’s what has been described as my [annoying to some] kumbayaness. But I also know that not everyone thinks like me.
I leave the decision up to you. Should people be removed from the ALI blogroll once they become pregnant or are parenting?
Updated:
I’m jumping into the comment section with this post because I think it’s a public discussion (vs. emailing people directly). So you can find more of my thoughts down there.
I think what it comes down to is not wanting to repeat work. I volunteer at a library. I’m happy to do so and get a lot out of it emotionally. I would be very cranky if someone came in after me, took all the books I reshelved back out, and then set them in place again. The librarians wouldn’t care because they see their need still fulfilled (getting the books back on the shelves). But I care. I care that I am volunteering my time, but it’s unnecessary. I could step back and allow the second volunteer to take over the position and better use my time for a need that is not currently filled. And I guess that is what I see here, from the point-of-view of the volunteer vs. the point-of-view of the blogroll user (the librarian).
Two businesses can certainly exist, selling the same products with overlapping clientele. But this is volunteering — it’s using my time for others vs. using it for myself. I enjoy doing it, just as I enjoy volunteering in the library, and I don’t have a desire to stop. But I want to use my volunteering time well: for needs that aren’t filled vs. maintaining a list that is identical to another one out there.
Second Update:
Discussion in the comment section below has brought out another reason for the new blogroll, and frankly, I think I may need to step away from the Internet for awhile to collect my thoughts. I left this comment below, but thought it important enough to move up here. When it was just a blogroll, it felt like, “feh… this is double work. How can I slip out so we’re not both doing the same thing, and I can take that time for something else.” Learning the rest of the reason for the blogroll has now made me — frankly — angry. To have my ideas used in this way.
Personally, hearing that one of the points of PAIL is to create a separate ICLW event makes it worse. Is the point to simply copy everything I’ve done to try to create community and make the inverse of it — something divisive? I have to admit that while I wasn’t hurt per se before this point, I am now angry to hear my ideas taken and twisted into something exclusive. This absolutely doesn’t have my support in the least if that is one of the reasons to create the list. And frankly, for the people who are supporting it, I don’t fully understand how people can talk about the desire for inclusivity, protection of ideas, supporting one another, and then jump into this project. I truly wish the creator of this list had come up with her own ideas for building community rather than taking my own and twisting them to form something I would be wholly against. My desire is to always build bridges, not to dig moats.
156 comments
NO! The two lists serve different purposes, and are therefore both necessary, IMHO. I for one am parenting after infertility, but most of the people who are parenting after infertility are no longer trying to get pregnant. I joined PAIL because I am still ttc, and most of the people who are reading my blog now are still new to ttc. It is mostly to let people know that I may have subjects on my blog that are uncomfortable to newbies. Most of the traffic on my blog is from people who I am cycling with, and occasionally from people whose blogs I comment on.
I still hope that by being on your blog roll that some people from long ago may find me so that I can touch base with them…find out if they ever did get pregnant or adopted a baby from India like they were hoping to do, for example. I think your blogroll is one of the most important corner stones of the ALI blogging community right now, and I for one would hate to no longer be a part of it.
Absolutely not. I came to this community already a parent, trying for my second child. I’d had one loss, and then quickly found myself experiencing RPL and secondary infertility. Now that I’ve *finally* given birth to my son, I still feel very much a part of this community. I read blogs by folks who are trying, who are pregnant, and (now) who are parents post-IF. But do I want to be sent to a special land–this new community–that is specific to folks who fit my exact situation? No thanks. Haven’t joined it and have no intent on joining it, though I might check out the blogroll to see if there are some other blogs I’d like to read that I’ve missed along the way.
I really hope you keep the parenting subsection alive in YOUR blogroll, Mel, as it really is the largest and most inclusive.
As long as there is a volunteer to maintain it, I am all for having it stay. A new list doesn’t negate the need for the old list. They are overlapping spaces fulfilling similar but slightly differing needs.
Bea
But I don’t think it needs to be Jets and Sharks — mine or anothers. It’s about not repeating work. If the two lists are the same, they both don’t need to exist. Because this isn’t Giant and Safeway both vying for your business with the same products — this is (at least on my part) a person volunteering to provide a service to help the community. If I dropped the blogroll tomorrow, it would free up hours of time. I don’t want to drop the blogroll because I get something out of it emotionally. But I also don’t want to waste time.
Do you see the reason why this would bother me — I spent two hours working on the blogroll last night; adding people, moving people around. It feels like I’m volunteering to paint a wall, and then another person is coming along and painting over my paint. Which begs the question — why bother using my time to paint in the first place? Why don’t I volunteer elsewhere — do something else? If someone wants to take on that section of the blogroll, doesn’t it make more sense for me to delete out everyone who is parenting from my blogroll and they can go over to the other one once they are parenting? It would certainly save me time insofar as cleaning up the blogroll.
No. I like having both those of us still waiting and those who have crossed over on your blogroll. It’s always been a source of hope for me because it lets me see that people do make it out of the hell of IF and to the other side. I know I need that.
I hate the idea of splitting up the blogroll, but I also don’t like the idea of you doing extra work. I, personally, had hoped to stay a part of *this* community if I ever get to the parenting side of things. IDK yet how I’ll feel, when the time comes, about having to move to a different blogroll just because I have a baby, instead of being able to just move to a different room in your blogroll, but right now I don’t like this idea.
In fact, I find the whole thing disturbing and upsetting and it triggers all my deep childhood issues. Just the fact that those people went and created a separate group makes me squirm and not want to be a part of what they are doing. I saw it, and thought, I’d rather stay on Mel’s blogroll. So that’s my 2c.
When I read that in L&F, my first thought was “why are they doing that? Mel already has that.” Honestly, I don’t plan on submitting myself on the other one because I consider your blogroll to be THE blogroll. And I hate the idea of being kicked off the “main” blogroll just because I have reached the other side. I also kind of think that yours ought to stay because it is established and is even in print, like in Navigating the Land of IF.
Maybe the person starting the new one would want to take over maintenance of that section? Because really, when I read that, I thought “they could just copy and paste from Mel.”
Yeah, I totally see that. And (having not seen the list) if you feel you can just sort of point to it and bow out and can think of fifty other things you’d be better off doing (you and also us, possibly) then I wouldn’t blame you. But even if the list is separately maintained I’d like to see it included somewhere in your roll (eg as a link), for all the reasons you mention. And I have no objection to seeing it duplicated, and in fact duplication is just great from my angle because I do like the idea of two overlapping communities, but I wouldn’t want you killing yourself trying to keep up because it’s probably not super-important to have everything under the exact same umbrella (and I’m sure you can kill yourself in plenty of other ways anyhow).
Bea
When Elphie blogged that she felt lost about where she fit into IF blogland anymore, it struck a chord with many of us. I don’t think that PAIL is about being divisive – it’s about having a blogroll where you have a better idea of what you’re coming across if you’re a part of it. When I was TTC, it was extremely hard for me to come across blogs during IComLeavWe that were now all about parenting/pregnancy (which admittedly, mine is mostly about now). I, for one, haven’t participated in IComLeavWe since my BFP, even though I love it. I just don’t feel comfortable with possibly “inflicting” my blog on another unsuspecting IFer who might not be in a good head space to see MY space. Does that make sense? Maybe that’s something I need to get over? I don’t know. I just know that PAIL was never created with the intention of painting over your hard work. You are truly the heart of this community, and we all appreciate what you do to help us come together and stay together.
I’m not sure what the best “solution” is for this… thanks for starting the discussion.
I guess it depends how the other roll is going to be run and maintained, too. We trust your methods!
I can’t help but think there should be a software solution for this. Something that cuts down the work. But putting someone into the parenting category (or adding a parenting tag, or whatever the solution needs) seems like a very human activity, given all the potential complications.
Bea
I guess what’s not clear to me is what this new list is trying to do that the existing parenting-after-IF subsection of your blogroll doesn’t. I can’t imagine it’s any different. So while I do understand the where-do-I-fit impulse that comes when you move to the “other side”…I don’t get what the new list is for. At all. Except if the person started it simply hadn’t bothered to check your blogroll?
I’m going to come out from my lurking spot to comment on this. I found this community when trying for my first child—I considered myself a member of the community so far as reading/commenting and interacting (and receiving oh-so-helpful support) but I did not start my own blog until I was pregnant with my second child. So my blog has no mention of infertility-related topics, except in the past tense (and only very vaguely and rarely). Because I started blogging at a different time in my journey (and I was so incredibly lucky) I waffled about joining your blogroll. On the one hand, my blog has very little (if anything) to do with IF; on the other hand, the majority of my (very few) readers/commenters and the blogs that I read and comment on are all part of the ALI community. I DO feel different on this inside (though outwardly, I’m sure the scars are well-hidden) because of the struggles I faced conceiving my children, and I feel more comfortable interacting with others that have taken similar paths.
Anyways, I was in the midst of this waffling when I read about the PAIL blogroll. My first thought was—”Wait, doesn’t Mel have a room for this on her blogroll? How is this different?”. I was hoping you had been consulted or included in the discussion about starting PAIL, given all you’ve done to maintain your blogroll over the years. But I admit I did not ask.
I did end of joining the blogroll and I am a little ashamed to say it was mostly a “following the herd” decision, as a lot of the blogs I read were joining and I figured “why not”. Reflecting upon this more today I completely get where you are coming from and I understand your frustration and hurt and I am so sorry that I am in any small way a part of that. I realize now that I need to really think, ask, and consider before joining a virtual group just as much as I would a real-life one.
Even though I’m currently “parenting after IF,” we’re still not through with building our family. So, as a use case, if you stop keeping your blogroll, I would have to go to the other blogroll, then leave there when we ttc again, then get booted back to another site if/when we’re successful?
I think that sounds like a horrible idea.
Like you said, it’s incredibly divisive and disrupts the flow of our community as people transition through multiple stages in their journey.
This is a really tricky one. I think it would be very sad to loose this section of the blogroll, as April says, it is hope for the rest of us. I do however absolutely 100% agree that is unfair for you to have to double up work which is happening elsewhere. I am not sure I fully understand the need for a separate group but I also think if that is what these bloggers feel they need they probably have a reason for feeling that way. I don’t know what to suggest, but I feel that you were right to start this dialogue as a start. I would like to understand the need for another space better and I hope this dialogue will highlight this.
Even though I’m now a parent after five years of trying to become one, my husband and I are both just as infertile as I was before and will still have to go through the same motions in order to have any future children. My blog was a huge part of my coping process through infertility. Ever since I’ve become a parent, it’s been hard to find stuff to write about because I’m in a different place now than I was before and don’t have as much to work through emotionally, but I know that if we try to have another child it will once again become a place of refuge while I sort through my thoughts. I’ve hoped that my blog can be a beacon for others to come across facing the same types of infertility and I hate the idea that I’d get removed from the ALI blogroll because I’m a parent now, just in case my story could help one other person.
Of course this is your decision, and I hear you about not wanting to spend your time doing something that is identically replicated somewhere else – because your time is worth a lot and you could choose to do something different (better!) with it.
I wonder though…Where will people dealing with SIF feel at home? Will this new blogroll be maintained with the same care and attention? Will it feel alienating to people who do achieve pregnancy to have to “switch communities”? What about people who are pregnant, but suffer a miscarriage, must they hop back and forth?
It’s not that I can’t empathize with both sides…but when I’m uncertain I tend to err on the side of inclusion. Part of what I find so magical about the IF community is that people are so universally supportive of their fellow bloggers – even if the situations or choices are different from their own.
Thank you for opening this up to discussion. These are my thoughts now, but if others create compelling arguements I’m certainly open to change.
Hi delurker here,
I don’t have a blog but I found this blogroll while my partner and I were trying to conceive and struggling with infertility. I was in awe of the commitment it took to put this all together and it was an awesome resource for me as I searched for other lesbian families dealing with infertility.
Almost two years after we started trying with my partner (who is significantly older), we decided to try with me. I consulted the blogroll again to try to find couples who had switched partners mid-stream to get a sense of how they navigated that. The blogroll was again an excellent resource.
When we got pregnant, I used the blogroll to find other families who were post IF and pregnant and due around the same time.
In other words, every time we’ve moved into a different stage on the journey, I’ve consulted the blogroll and been able to find similarly placed individuals.
Sadly, I haven’t been able to commit to blogging myself, so it has been a one way relationship but I try to comment as often as I can so I feel like I am giving something back to the community.
Mel, I am in awe of your commitment to this community. You really are an incredible person to dedicate so much time to building this resource and engaging this community in constructive ways.
I can certainly understand how hurtful it would be to have someone come in and attempt to recreate what you have built over these years.
At the very least, they should have consulted with you to see if there were opportunities to collaborate.
As some have suggested, perhaps they could have instead maintained that section of your blogroll.
I think this is one of those things where the process was the problem. They should have consulted with you. That would have respected the effort and time you have put in over the years.
I am sorry this has worked out this way. I hope this discussion yields something constructive. At the very least, I want you to know that even those of us who don’t blog, appreciate your work, thoughtfulness and dedication.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
If I would have signed up for that blogroll were would I have been today due to my recent loss? To go back and forth between them both doesn’t make sense to me. The first thought I had when I first read about it was: why? when it’s already there. And if we are blessed with another pregnancy and a healthy baby, parenting for a while and then trying for a sibling (one can dream) we would be back to having to use treatments.
So, yeah I would be much more comfortable staying on your blogroll than being moved around. And if this is a question of not wanting to step on anyones toes during ICLW, then I would encourage all of the pregnant/parenting blogs to sign up anyways. The tagging is supposed to show where in the process you are, right. isn’t that he whole idea?
Like I have commented on a few blogs writing about this: I dont get the need for a duplication. At all. And yes, it does ruffle my feathers!
I saw this post coming when the PAIL list was started. I have to say that I dig through the parenting section of your blogroll for inspiration. I also look for women with similar issues that I might be able to connect with (although thus far I seem to be the only infertile uvetitis/lupus girl on earth! ) Your blogroll has been VERY valuable during times when I am at my worst and feeling completely hopeless. I love reading about peoples success. It was also very beneficial when my husband and I were having the one vs. two embryo debate. I prowled around the parenting blogs to see how many women had twins. How complicated were those pregnancies, etc.? If I had to seek out a second list on another Web site I don’t think it would be as easy to do this research. I sincerely hope you keep this list up!
This is a good discussion. I remember when I first found the blog roll. I didn’t pay any attention to it at first because every blog under PCOS was dead, pregnant or parenting. It was not what I was looking for. I was looking for women still at the same stage in the battle that I was. I came back a couple of months later and gave it another chance. I’m glad that I did, but I understand why this discussion needs to be had.
I don’t think a duplicate list is necessary. I like the blogroll as is, mostly, but I was very happy when the list got updated to include weather links were pregnant/parenting/etc. Like many other diagnoses, PCOS doesn’t go away just because you have a baby, but have a relatively current status for the blogs listed would be ideal. Now keeping them updated is the hard part.
I would be personally willing to check statuses of the PCOS section a couple times a year and help with the maintenance there. I think there used to be the idea that each section would have volunteers to upkeep each section. But I know that creates a lot of work for Mel too. I think there could be some fine tuning done to the statuses… like I don’t think it’s necessary to label a blog as “pregnant” because that is temporary and if there is a loss, who want to come back and see themselves listed as pregnant, so I’d just wait to label them as parenting at the next update.
So I don’t think a second, virtually duplicate list is appropriate or necessary. More volunteer help to maintain the individual “rooms” would be great, but the blogroll needs to be sustainable above all.
You have a great point. I think the parenting after must stay as a room in your blog roll house to complete one type of IF journey. Me personally-I want others ttc with the unique condition I also have (unicornuate uteris) to be able to find me and read how I got to a full term baby just as I found blogs that did when I was ttc. And I want to
connect with those now parenting. Sounds like your blog roll accomplishes that. I just need to look. That being said, I did join pail based on ass-umptions bc my time and brain as a new mom is too limited to bother to do the proper research I should have and I forgot that a room like this existed in your created house. I assumed that because this was being created by one of the “cool kids” of the Ali community that it was done both bc such a thing did not exist and in consultation with said “cool kids” leader (you) so as to not duplicate or step on toes. Obviously I was wrong. Please keep your full journey possibilities blogroll complete!
It certainly seems repetitive. Your website and blogroll is a great source of information and comfort for many women, and I DEFINITELY think that the parenting/pregnant after IF section should remain.
Maybe the creator of the PAIL list didn’t realize you had a designated “room” for that already…?
Wow, what a complicated, duplication of effort type mess. Let me first say that as someone who has been reading blogs for 5 years and who has had my own for 2, I had never heard of PAIL (or Eggs and Sperm) until this post by you. I absolutely consider you to be a national treasure and clearinghouse for the ALI community and a sort of de facto expert when it comes to ALI blogging/bloggers.
I completely get why, if you had your druthers and could free up some time, you’d opt to drop the parenting after IF blogroll maintenance from your house & spend time doing other work. But, I will say, Mel, that as much as the duplication of effort seems completely redundant, YOU are the clearinghouse, like it or not. And, with that, comes a certain degree of responsibility to the community at large that you helped build. Anything/one else is just a reasonable facsimile.
I don’t know, I absolutely see parenting after IF as being a huge part of the struggle with IF..it IS where everyone with IF is hoping to go, no matter what path they may take. I’ve been a parent thru IVF for 5 years all the while trying every which way to have #2 and I feel like as much if not a bigger part of this community now in that our struggle for #2 has been more than double as long as it was for #1. My link to this community through YOU is my lifeline. Others may have put their big girl panties in & feel like they have “graduated”, but I do not.
I would rather see you take on a volunteer to help manage the blogroll than have you abandon that room (or even link to someone else’s version of it).
YOU have our trust and THIS is a safe place for us.
Thanks for starting the discussion on this Mel.
I too was confused by the start of the PAIL blogroll. First, because I knew you had already created such a list. Secondly, because it felt exclusive. I understand where Elphaba is coming from: she’s blogged about no longer identifying as infertile after the birth of her daughter. But I also think she jumped the gun by creating this list and not opening it up for discussion first. Because, to me, it feels like she’s handing out club keys to those who have reached the end of their journey while showing them off to those of us still in the trenches. It’s hard not to be hurt by that.
So I have a suggestion: how about a collaboration? I know a lot of the time it’s easier just to have one person maintain a list, but here’s an individual who’s looking for an outlet to feel part of the community. Think of it as taking on an apprentice.
Finally, I love the blogroll. The way it’s set up allows for a newbie like me to easily access information and it fits the spirit of community.
@Christy, I think you identified something really important when you said “it feels like she’s handing out club keys to those who have reached the end of their journey while showing them off to those of us still in the trenches.”
I don’t think it was intentional, but it’s hard not to feel like the loser on the playground in elementary school. We get enough of that out in the real world.
I think if you had to categorize me, I’d be “foster to adopt parenting after IF and TTC over 35 without secondary IF since I technically never had the first.”
As far as maintenance, maybe send out an email to all participants once a year to confirm their status. Some may have forgotten they are on the list in the first place.
FYI, sperm is a blocked term on some company’s websites in case people want to check PAIL through their work computer.
I am one of those bloggers who is now parenting, but whose blog remains in her original diagnosis room. When I recently moved from Blogger to WP, I emailed you to make the address change and asked–out of concern for others with our diagnosis who may not wish to stumble onto a blog now focused more centrally on parenting through infertility–should my blog be moved to the parenting section now? And you offered that staying put in my category would make it easier for others to find me. And I found so much wisdom in that. Because, the thing is? A blog is valuable no matter where the person is on their journey, or even if the blog is no longer being updated. The history still exists and is still helpful. I can tell when an unknown lurker has been sifting through my archives, and when I see that those pages have hits it brings me some comfort to know that perhaps, though I am beyond that part of my journey now, my experiences maybe continue to be insightful/valuable in some way. And for that reason alone I am happy not being relocated to the parenting room.
I didn’t join the new blogroll. I just didn’t see the point in it for me. I do have an IF parenting blog peer group already; fortunately many of the bloggers I started reading when I started my blog have also added to their families through various means over the years. I haven’t found it that difficult to locate other IF parenting bloggers, either. It’s a simple matter of reading/blog-hopping for me.
I am curious: would there be difficulty for you if blogs were shelved on duplicate shelves in the blogroll? Would it meet others’ needs if, using my blog as an example, my blog was posted both on the MFI/Varicocele AND the parenting shelf?
Your time is valuable (for you and for those of us who reap the benefits of your efforts in this community) and I don’t wish to see your time squandered either.
I’m glad you’re addressing this head on. I also think it’s okay to say you feel hurt by it – because that’s what it sounds like, and I know I would be hurt if I were in your situation.
I am uncomfortable with PAIL because of how it divides the IF community into people who crossed to the other side and people who are still fighting through. I am uncomfortable with the idea of – in a way – *leaving* the ALI community now that I’m pregnant, so long and thanks for all the fish style. A few of the bloggers I’ve followed did that while I was still trying to get pregnant and it hurt to think that all that time that I’d supported them is now forgotten.
What also doesn’t sit well with me is the thought of joining while pregnant and potentially (Gd forbid) losing the baby(ies) – what happens then? There’s no good way to deal with that the way things are set up now.
I like the format of ICLW because the blogs are all self-identified. Maybe something that encourages women to self-identify as parenting or pregnant will make the women more comfortable so that it’s not an accidental discovery. Who knows.
You do a lot of amazing work that is very very much appreciated by people around the world struggling with infertility. I hope this experience doesn’t cloud that for you.
And I didn’t say this in my previous comment, but THANK YOU for all of your hard work and time spent organizing the lists, ICLW, and many other things you do for us. You are incredibly appreciated, Mel!
I did join the other blogroll. But my reason was not one that I have seen listed here yet.
I joined it because I join lots of blogrolls. I always think of the person out there who is looking and stumbles on one blog and might only see that one blogroll. If you are big into reading blogs (like me), you will inevitable end up here. But if you are feeling lost and don’t have the time that some of us do, I want to be sure that my story can be found and read. I think my story can bring hope to someone after a loss and I want it in as many places as possible. I go into them with the impression that they will probably help someone at some point, but they won’t last over time. I honestly hadn’t thought about it since I signed up.
I think of all other blogrolls as secondary to this one. I keep a small list on the sidebar of my blog. I don’t do it as a blogroll to use *instead* of yours. It’s just another way for us all to link together. I email out your link constantly, it is THE place to find healing and friendships.
My opinion (although I don’t think it matters – your are the one who needs to make the decision) is that you should continue as you are. I look to you as the Capitol (not in a bad Hunger Games way!) of our blogging world. You are steady and solid and dependable.
If you decide to remove the parenting side of the list, then I would only ask that you keep a link to it here. And to get a promise that it will be watched over.
Hmmm. Below are some of my thoughts about this, presented in somewhat disjointed format.
My background: I don’t blog. I do read and comment. I am a mom. Without the internet, I doubt I would be. Julie at ALP and Julia at Hippogriffs, among others, kept me going when it seemed like everything and everyone else was wanting me to stop. My son was conceived 2006 via IVF after starting ttc in 2002 with a vasectomy reversal for my DH and moving in 2003 to IVF when it was clear the reversal had failed. I failed to move past SIF, having decided after 1 more FET and 2 more IVFs that a younger sibling for DS was not in the cards. I am a stepmom and have been before, during, and after IF. I am now cautiously hopeful that stepgrandmotherhood may be in my future but if the married (philosophically though not, darn laws, legally) one of my stepkids provides the grandchild, that will involve some level of IF tx as the partnership is same-sex. IF is part of my world.
I was recently struck by how viscerally I can relate to what Mo of Life and Love in the Petri Dish posted on 2/14. The POAS, the desire for a beta. I can feel that in my gut so much more than I can remember the details of the early days of my son’s life. I don’t say that as a sad thing — they were 2 different experiences, the latter positive if exhausting and something we muddled through, the former crushing in the moment even though it turned out the eventual outcome I most feared at the time — never becoming a mom — didn’t happen. The former marked me forever. Even today, I have more to say to the ttc-er, at least, to some ttc-ers, than I do to the new mom. I do follow some mom blogs that aren’t post-IF blogs or aren’t listed on your blogroll (one is actually an adoptive SMC blog and another is co-blogged by a PG-and-mothering-with-PCOS-and-after-loss so could in principle belong there), but most of the mom blogs I read are moms I met when they were ttc through IF and/or loss and have continued to follow.
I was puzzled by PAIL because like others have said I thought that community was already represented in the extant blogroll. I didn’t click over until you posted this, as once you had I wanted to see what I was discussing. I have to say I disagree somewhat with your view that PAIL duplicates that portion of your blogroll. To me, duplication would mean a blogroll that contained all, and only, the information in that section of your blogroll. PAIL has much less (at least, right now, counted in sheer numbers of blogs) and it is differently presented (listed by age of kid). Whether that is a useful alternative or not, I don’t know, but I don’t think it constitutes a duplication.
I can imagine PAIL taking on a life of its own, perhaps attracting new members who find their way there through the blogs of existing members but not also finding their way here. I have to say I consider that a downside in the sense that I do, for reasons to which I allude above in my background, very much value the inclusiveness of this community and its continuity across the life course. Someday (soon for me I hope, as noted) we’ll be blogging about grandmothering after IF — right?
At the same time, I wonder if there might be a way to combine forces, to allow the energy going into PAIL to instead be directed at updating and maintaining that portion of your blogroll.
I think you blogroll is too big and it feels intimidating and impersonal to me. That’s why I joined PAIL. The people who joined at the same time as me I already felt like I ‘knew’ because I had met them when we were cycling together. There are a whole new set of challenges that arrive when you get your BFP after infertility and/or loss. I don’t think anyone intends to exclude folks still waiting for their BFPs. Personally, I write for myself. I read for myself. I need to read about success stories for me to stay in a mentally healthy place. PAIL works for me. Your blogroll does not. Your blogroll is what many others want and need. From the supportive comments I read here it does not appear that you are wasting your precious volunteer time.
I totally understand where you’re coming from. To answer your question, I don’t think anyone should be removed from a blogroll just because they are pregnant and/or parenting, unless they want to be. I think they still have a lot to offer others who are going through similar struggles they went though.
I asked for my blog to be added to your Pregnancy After Loss room last month because I was looking to connect with those who might be pregnant after a miscarriage. So I’ll admit to I’m newish to all of this. I guess I’m just trying to find “my place” as none of my friends have experienced pregnancy/baby loss and I’ve had a hard time finding people who understand how I’ve been feeling being pregnant after an early pregnancy loss. I signed up for ICLW and read about women who were pregnant after a loss, but they also struggled with IF before getting pregnant — something I really didn’t go through. I kind of left ICLW feeling like I was in between worlds. I had a loss, but the fact that I didn’t really experience IF sometimes made me feel a little awkward when I would try and comment on someone’s blog. It was the feeling of in-betweenness that Elphie wrote about, along with comments to that post from others who seemed to be in a similar situation as me, that made me think about, and then decide to, sign up for PAIL.
I was on the fence about joining PAIL because you do have the same thing on your blogroll. I’ve only been part of your blogroll for a few weeks, but I can tell that you’ve been awesome with keeping things up to date. I’ve seen other infertility/infant loss blogrolls on the web that are similar to yours, but haven’t been updated in years. I don’t know how/if this other blogroll is going to be kept updated/maintained. It’s new enough that I’m playing the “wait and see how this goes” game with it. Personally, I like the idea of having both available. I may get in touch with people I wouldn’t otherwise get in contact with here. Your list is also way more comprehensive which gives people the opportunity to read blogs regarding multiple situations, not just parenting/pregnancy after loss. Plus some people may feel more comfortable staying within one site vs. having to hop from one person’s blog site to another depending on their situation. I don’t have any intention of asking to be removed from your blogroll unless you’d prefer it that way. If the other blogroll doesn’t seem to work out, then I like knowing I still have a place here.
Ultimately, I’d hate to see you delete the pregnancy/parenting after loss rooms, but I am fully aware that that takes a lot of time to keep something like this updated. I do appreciate it though! I also hate the idea of you spending hours maintaining something if you don’t feel it’s necessary.
No matter what, I’ll definitely be keeping you on my blogroll as I think this site is an awesome resource.
Just because you’re parenting after IF doesn’t mean you’re done. I have 5 1/2 year old twins and we are currently trying again. I don’t see the need for another list, but if someone wants to create one fine. However, I want all my resources in one place. I sort of see this as a pretty decent slap in the face to you, Mel, not because I think that two lists can’t co-exists, but because it just seems like rather than opening a discussion in the community that already exists I don’t like that basically it was started behind the scenes. I don’t know. I’m in a very crappy place in my TTC journey, staring down the barrel of a gun of my impending “last try” this year and yet still parenting. Where do I belong? I want to be HERE. And that’s where I’m staying.
I don’t see it as a switching back and forth, or leaving one wall to go to another. I find that the PAIL blog roll list as a more active/subset of the parenting after infertility room that Mel has set up. Most of the bloggers on the parenting after infertility list that Mel has set up are 1) parenting older children 2) no longer actively trying to conceive 3) haven’t considered the IF part of the equation in some time. I am on that list, and have been since I started my blog. BUT I’m also actively ttc, and have recently suffered a pretty devastating loss. I guess what I’m saying is that PAIL seems more of a sub category, not a replacement for Mel’s blog list. For example, most of the bloggers on PAIL seem to be parents of new babies or toddlers and/or ttc again after a loss or newly pregnant. I need that kind of support, and frankly, most of the parenting after infertility people are no longer in that place. That doesn’t mean that the blog roll still isn’t very important, and by no means a waste of Mel’s time. I’m just trying to find the place where I belong, and where my posts will find the people that they speak to the best.
I definitely think that energy that is going into recreating the wheel could go into fixing up that section of the blogroll. I will also take any help offered in maintaining the list. Baby Smiling in Back Seat once took on the task of going through over 1000 blogs, moving them around. When the blogroll gets cleaned once a year, it is always with volunteers.
I didn’t know about PAIL until last night when I read it on the LFCA. I would have loved a discussion about the blogroll prior to this. We often end up with new categories as people suggest new ones. We changed the language in the loss room by group consensus. We could obviously change the layout of a room as well or create smaller categories within the room.
I am very grateful for this discussion, and it’s helping me solidify ideas.
I lurk more than I comment (bad, I know!), but wanted to add my two cents. I had no idea about this secondary blogroll. I guess I would be eligible to join, given I am now parenting after IF, but personally, I would much rather stay on your blogroll for a number of the reasons listed above by other posters.
Hopefully my family is not yet complete. If the ‘parenting after IF’ room disappears from your blogroll, does that mean I have to move over to this other one, then move back when we start ttcing for number #2, even though some of my posts will no doubt still be about number #1, then get shunted back over there if/when number #2 arrives? What if we suffer losses en route- do I have to bounce back and forth again?
I also don’t really like the idea of exclusion- both that the participants in the new blogroll are excluding anyone else who hasn’t yet managed to grasp that gold ring (if I may use your land of IF analogy, it’s like all those who got off the island get to board a cruise ship and shout, “See ya, suckers!” to those left behind, still struggling…or at least that’s how it feels to me), and it feels excluding to have those who are pregnant/parenting removed from your blogroll.
I don’t know the person who started the new blogroll, but speaking only for myself, I know that I absolutely do NOT feel that I have somehow overcome my infertility through having E. I still very much identify with the IF community. If anything, I’m more open about talking about it in my ‘real’ life now that we have E.- more likely to say that it took us a long time to get him and that we were very lucky when people start asking about siblings.
What it boils down to, for me, at least, is I trust you, and I trust (and love) your blogroll. I trust that it will still be there, and that through it I can find anyone in my situation who wants to be found. I just don’t feel the same way about this new one. I feel that pregnant/parenting after IF is just a continuation of the IF spectrum. While I was in the trenches, a lot of the blogs I read became pregnancy/parenting ones, and while sometimes they were hard to read, they were also so helpful to see that sometimes things did work out.
That said, I do understand that this is a huge amount of work for you, and it would be deeply frustrating to find that it was being duplicated for no real apparent reason. Would there be a way to enlist more people to help maintain the blogroll? Maybe people could check the blogs in one section every six months to see if they need to be moved, and/or drop an email to the writer, and then report back to you (or have multiple people checking sections for the larger lists). Or could you post twice a year asking people to check where they are in your blogroll and to email you if they need to move categories (as I’ve just realized I’m still in the PCOS room and should now be over in parenting, assuming it stays there)? I don’t know what your blogroll process is and how you go about it, but I know I would vote for keeping the blogroll as complete as possible and in one place- your space. Given the amount of time and energy you expend on it, it would be great if there was some way to get others to help cut down on the amount of maintenance you need to do.
I also wonder, given some of the other comments above about trying to find people in similar situations who were successful, whether, if the pregnant/parenting category stays in your blogroll, it might be an option to ultimately have in brackets after the blog’s name what the major diagnosis was, and what was the treatment protocol that worked: so I would be Res Cogitatae (PCOS, IVF/ICSI). That way someone who was looking for PCOSers who did get pregnant would be able to find them quickly in that huge list of pregnant/parenting bloggers. Obviously there is no way that you should be going through the blogs to determine this, as that would take forever and would be an insane waste of your time, but bloggers could send their details to you (or to someone else who could keep it organized and then send the final list to you), and eventually their entries could be adjusted. I have no idea how much more time it would take to adjust the blog titles to include that info- maybe it would be far too time consuming to be worthwhile from your perspective. It was just a thought.
I really appreciate everything you do for this community, and I hope something can be figured out to allow you to feel that it is worthwhile to keep the parenting room in your blogroll.
I think that the ladies who have finally gotten pregnant just want a label or badge that makes them connected and distinct from the entire world of pregnancy and parenting. If (when) I get pregnant, I would like that “badge” too, but I wouldn’t need to be on any other blogroll. Is there any possibility of incorporating the two ideas together? (I see that the above poster had the same idea…sorry to repeat.)
Oh Mel. (((hugs))) to you. I feel terrible that you are experiencing this hurt. You do so much for the community and I feel terrible for having joined PAIL now. I joined yesterday and in the back of my mind I felt like I was double dipping of sorts.
I think others have commented before me about feeling a bit out of place on the current blog roll. I know after I had Kaitlin I was searching desparately for a new group of bloggers to read that were also parenting. I’d scour the LFCA for birth announcements and that’s how I’d find my new blogs. And I still do that. Except now I’m thinking about TTC #2 and there seems to be an even smaller group of people in this category. So maybe the answer isn’t to have a new blog roll but to have a new category for TTC again? I’m not sure?
My thoughts:
Elphaba may have different readers, other readers, than you do. People who don’t know about your blogroll because they know her from elsewhere. If it helps more people connect, how is it a bad thing? At the same time, I really don’t see a need for two blogrolls. She could just as easily put a link on her blog to that section of your blogroll and have the same effect.
I contemplated listing myself on the other blogroll as well, just to see if there were more readers. I read through some of the descriptions people have of their blogs, however, and felt even more intimidated and like I didn’t belong – quite the opposite of the intended, I suppose. Thank you, Mel, for making your blog/blogroll welcoming, with a space for all. And thank you for creating and maintaining it!
I joined the PAIL blogroll too. Mostly because I saw it as an active subset of Bloggers on the Roll; maybe I’d find some others who are struggling with TTC again like I am.
It seems I’m in an odd place; parenting but also still struggling with IF as well, and it’s hard for me to find people who are in the same boat as me. And The Blogroll is so big. I am amazed and overwhelmed by how many blogs are on it and it seems somewhat of a Herculean task to read through that many people in the hopes I’ll find a blog sister to share my own journey.
But maybe it’s because I’m lazy, or been around for waaaaaay too long and miss the community when it was small and everyone knew everyone.
Personally, I think you do an amazing job at keeping tabs on the ENTIRE community. It’s big and shifting all the time and I honestly don’t know how you do it. You’re amazing.
But also, I need a smaller space to find people like me, too. I have to think in this big Internet there are people who are struggling with stopping treatments for TTC #2 like I am. And that’s what I was hoping to get from PAIL.
xoxo
I feel like I have to comment on this, as I actually posted about what I perceived as the exclusivity of PAIL (even though I joined it) last week only to receive a bunch of comments about how I’m only seeing the negative in a positive situation and how I had gotten it all wrong. I have to admit, I’m feeling a little vindicated that others viewed it similarly.
Having said that, I did join PAIL and I feel I have to explain why I did. For one thing, I have noticed that there are a lot of ghost blogs on your blogroll. While I understand the value of keeping up a blog for the archives, I always found those frustrating when I was looking for new people because I don’t want to read archives, I want to follow people who are experiencing things here and now. I understand that it’s a lot of work to weed those out, but if they were in an Archived section I think it would be much easier to navigate your blogroll. Maybe people could sign up to do that for you, so you wouldn’t have to do it all yourself.
The other reason I added myself to PAIL was because I heard they planned on doing an ICLW type comment events. I used to sign up for ICLW every month but found that when I was pregnant, and especially after I had my daughter, no one came to my blog. I always tagged myself as parenting after loss, because I would hate for someone to stumble on me thinking I were a TTC blog, but ultimately I think it kept people away. After many months of leaving 42+ comments on new blogs and getting maybe five or six in return I just felt there was no point in participating. I never got new readers and I rarely found new blogs to read. There just aren’t a lot of parenting after IF blogs on the ICLW list and I think that is because they don’t get visited. And I understand why and I don’t begrudge people for not coming to my blog when they are in the trenches. I think ICLW is an incredibly powerful event for those just starting their IF journey or those who feel everyone is “graduating” to pregnancy or parenting while they are stuck TTC, but it is not a very productive way of meeting people for those of us who are on the other side.
Reading this post, and seeing it from your perspective, I totally understand your frustration at doing a bunch of work that someone else is doing elsewhere. Having said that, I do think your blogroll is special and different and I would hate to see the pregnant and parenting sections go. Like you said, in your blog roll pregnancy and parenting are rooms in the house of ALI, there is a place for everyone and people move from room to room as their journey requires. I love that idea and am so much more comfortable with that than a list where it has to be asked what the protocol is for women who have lost a pregnancy or a child. Where do they go? Are they just deleted, only to be added again when they fit the requirements? That is what makes me uncomfortable.
So I feel very unsure of what to do. One the one hand I worry the list is exclusive, on the other hand I want to participate in a commenting event where I will feel included. I don’t know what the answer is, I honestly don’t. I’m sorry I’m not being very helpful but hopefully my comment makes it more clear why people joined the list even if they had concerns similar to your own.
Esperanza brought out some of these concerns as well. I guess that my interpretation of the new list was that it isn’t even attempting to be the kind of comprehensive list that yours is (if it came down to a real question of duplication and a choice between one or the other, I don’t think a single person would want to separate from THE list). I got the impression that PAIL is intended to be more of a discussion group where people who are actively working through the special circumstances of adapting to parenting or pregnancy after IF/loss gather. Anybody interested in these kind of discussions (whatever their parenting/pregnancy status) could stop in to discuss and those who just don’t want to hear about such things because they are either more mature parents or still cycling, etc. might gain a bit of protection from all the morning sickness/breastfeeding talk.
I’m glad that you started this discussion. Although it is fairly normal for people to separate themselves into subgroups within a large community, it can also be divisive. I really don’t think that was the intention, however.
To me, the whole point of being on your blogroll even though I’m now past the IF part of my story is to act as a light in the darkness. Particularly because I have a relatively obscure diagnosis, I want to be there for others to see that yes, you can get here from there. When I was TTC I took great comfort from reading the archives of people who had made it through successfully, and I would hope that my blog can be that to others. (In fact, I know it is, because I still get comments on very old posts thanking me.) If you removed the parenting blogs from your blogroll, regardless of whatever other duplicate blogrolls exist out there, I think that does a disservice to those who are looking to find people who are farther along the road than themselves.
My first thought when I read this post was to be a little offended on your behalf, like, why would anyone feel the need for another blogroll? But reading the other comments, I wonder if (not knowing anything about this “other” blogroll) the idea there is to create a community for those who want to talk mostly about parenting, and who no longer identify as IF? In which case I can see the point of having that blogroll, and can see how the two lists might eventually diverge. For example, there might be plenty of people who never blogged about infertility at all, and so their archives wouldn’t really be useful to someone in the trenches–but they still want to join a community of others with whom they have a shared past. Or, I can see that blogroll being a good place for those who start a whole new blog once they become parents (and their old IF-focused blog stays on your blogroll).
Although I now blog about parenting and pregnancy topics, the raison d’etre of my blog is IF. I would probably not be inclined to join the other blogroll simply because I (as someone who is no longer trying to build up her blog readership) don’t really have a need/desire to connect with other parenting-after-IF folks specifically. I WOULD want to be kept on your list, even if I eventually stopped posting regularly or at all, because I would want my treatment and other IF archives to be available to others who are just starting their journey.
I do recognize that this is all a lot of work for you, though, and I think everyone here would respect whatever decision you made.
(PS My perspective on this may be a bit different from others because I am not actually listed in the “pregnancy and parenting” room, but in the diagnosis room with the note “(parenting)” after my blog link. So I suppose even if you got rid of the pregnancy and parenting room, those of us who are still associated with a specific diagnosis would remain?)
It’s ultimately your decision, but I hope you don’t start deleting rooms from your blog roll. I did join PAIL, but not because I am unhappy being on your blog roll. I signed up because I figured there may be different people reading your blog than read hers and I like to be able to connect with as many like minded bloggers as possible.
I do feel bad if my participation has hurt your feelings,,,, that certainly was not my intent.
@electriclady I wanted to say that while I think you’re right, that a lot of people did join PAIL because they want to discuss parenting outside of the context of IF or loss, I don’t believe most did. If we wanted to do that we could go visit regular mommy blogrolls and find new readers/blogs there. Having said that, I do believe everyone experiences their IF/loss journey differently in parenthood. I, for one, don’t even blog much about actual parenting but I find that mostly it is those parenting that want to read my blog, because my daughter and motherhood do pop up here and there, probably more regularly than I even realize. They color everything I say I’m sure so it’s understandable that other mothers want to read my blog. Still, loss is a big part of my life and that also colors most of what I say. It’s a strange place to be, because it’s not just what you write about but how you write about it. I think that is what separates parenting after IF/loss blogs and regular mommy blogs. I think that could happen on the blogs of either blogroll though.
Okay. I, too, joined PAIL. And here are a few of my thoughts. First, I’m so sorry that anyone’s feelings were hurt! I don’t think any of us intended that, or for it to feel exclusive in any way. As others have said, though I am impressed by the number of blogs on The Blogroll, the sheer number sometimes overwhelms me. Also, I also like the idea of PAIL having its own ICLW-ish commenting event. I have participated in ICLW here several times and find it frustrating to comment 42+ times and get maybe half of those comments returned. I realize that I’m in a different place than many of the other participants, so why not also participate in something that may leave me feeling more included. And, last thing, as someone else said, one of the big reasons I joined is because I want to have my blog read, so why not participate in something else that could help? Although, last I checked, I was the only one who was parenting after adoption, so I don’t know that PAIL is exactly where I fit either.
OK. This is hard.
A few people have mentioned that they are a part of forums/discussion groups for parenting after infertility and those groups are secret and invitation-only. I haven’t been invited to them. Which, stings.
I think there isn’t a robust place for non-members to talk about parenting after infertility, and that’s why I thought PAIL was a brilliant
idea. It’s out in the open, not secret, and anyone parenting after infertility could join in.
It hurts to see hurt feelings about it, though. And I get people’s points. I would never want to leave the ALI community as a whole.
You ARE the Capitol of ALI land. And it pains me that you were hurt, too. You’re rad
Personally, hearing that one of the points of PAIL is to create a separate ICLW event makes it worse. Is the point to simply copy everything I’ve done to try to create community and make the inverse of it — something divisive? I have to admit that while I wasn’t hurt per se before this point, I am now angry to hear my ideas taken and twisted into something exclusive. This absolutely doesn’t have my support in the least if that is one of the reasons to create the list. And frankly, for the people who are supporting it, I don’t fully understand how people can talk about the desire for inclusivity, protection of ideas, supporting one another, and then jump into this project. I truly wish the creator of this list had come up with her own ideas for building community rather than taking my own and twisting them to form something I would be wholly against. My desire is to always build bridges, not to dig moats.
I hear what you’re saying about not wanting to duplicate work. But I see YOU as the ALI community organizer. I don’t know who did this new blogroll, and I haven’t checked it out, but if it’s not you, I don’t see it as THE source. I still want to be on your blogroll, pregnant and parenting after IF.
Nonprofits gave this problem all the time. People get fired up and assume they need to start their own nonprofit. But there may very well already be a nonprofit serving that cause. It’s nice to have the passion, and of course pride in leadership and having done so come into play, but really, it would serve the CAUSE better to join forces and leverage funding and effort together. This is of course, if a similar nonprofit already exists.
I don’t see a reason to separate pregnant/parenting after IF so severely. After IF, I’ve found the experience truly changes your parenting experience. Even making it to the other side, you still often feel as an “other.” I like the link to those TTC and build their families. And of corse, those continuing to build their families at still dealing with IF.
I hope you don’t cull this part of your blogroll. I think it’s an important part, and I really only trust it from you.
I also signed up for PAIL. I feel bad that you have been hurt by the creation of this secondary blog list, and in hindsight, it may have been better handled by openning a discussion about how to make the Parenting after IF room something better/more user-friendly/something different (none of these terms feel right…).
If anything, I think this whole situation shows a need within our community that needs to be addressed.
The reality is, in this community, when you get pregnant and have your baby(ies), things change. Immediately following Ginny’s birth, my readership dropped to a quarter of what it was. Since I got pregnant with my second sticky Halfling, it has dropped further. In the last two weeks alone, five blogs I have been a long time follower of have decided that they no longer fit in the IF community because they are done (at least for now) ttc and are parenting. They have stepped away from their IF blogs and have started new blogs, because they feel awkward and out of place here.
Perhaps we, as a community, need to look at how we make all people, wherever they are on their journey, feel welcome. I know it’s not done intentionally, or at least I hope not. It’s hard to read a blog where someone has gotten what you long for, while you’re still in hell. But it’s just as hard to have people you counted on as friends abandon you when you ‘get there’. Who but another IFer will understand the fears that still grip you, long after you write your birth story? But, at least in my experience, there isn’t a lot of that support.
And I know, Mel, that the work you do for all of us an incredible commitment, and for all that you continue to do for us all, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I know I couldn’t have gotten through the last 3 and a half years without the resources and connections you provide.
Perhaps some of us on the PAIL list could step forward to help brainstorm or manage the Parenting After IF room, or something? I would be more than willing to help out, to do what it takes to turn this painful situation into an opportunity for growth.
Most of the blogs I follow are parenting after IF. But they didn’t start out that way and nearly all of them expressed discomfort about the transition- a mix of survivor’s guilt and identity crisis as well as sadness over the dramatic reduction in comments and followers once pregnancy and live birth happened. I think PAIL is meant to be a way to manage all that.
I would love to volunteer to help maintain the blogroll.
@Mrs Gamgee- you said it pretty perfectly.
I have felt so out of place in the ALI community since getting pregnant and having my son. My readership dropped drastically and I even received some ugly comments and emails. Including that I got pregnant ‘too easily’. Just because after two years I finally got pregnant. It was awful. People who had given me such wonderful support disappeared and I was left feeling abandoned.
When I had one scare during my pregnancy all those people came out of the woodwork again. It was like I could only get support when I was having a negative experience.
I have to admit it left me disillusioned and a little bitter. I used to participate in ICLW but again, hardly any one came after I got pregnant.
It’s frustrating and honestly it really hurt my feelings. So when I found out about PAIL I thought it was finally a place where I belonged. Because I don’t feel like I belong in the ALI community anymore because I’ve felt so alienated.
I am about to start TTC again at the end of the month. But I’m still a new mommy and that is what takes up most of my life. As it should.
I don’t know what the answer is because I had such a negative experience with the ALI community after getting pregnant. I still want to support others and hope that some would learn from my story but I want to feel like a valuable member of the community as well.
Ok, my third comment (and I don’t even qualify for PAIL or any parenting after IF group).
I have to agree that some of this feels a little clique-ish. And although my first reaction to PAIL was “I wish I was in that group”. And that’s a reflection of where I am with my infertility: no baby. No parenting. No pregnancy.
I’m ok with mommy groups and things of that nature. But I do think it’s odd to form a group identical to a group that already exists, and to do the same things the existing blogroll is doing in a more exclusive manner.
Ok, I really think this is my last comment.
Mel, I am delurking to respond to what I have read here because this is important stuff. First off, I can totally appreciate and respect you being upset by this, particularly the use of an event (ICLW) that you pioneered and that has become an important source of support for many in this community. While I am sure that the people that created PAIL never intended it as a slight to you, I am totally in agreement that they should have consulted with you before doing this. I’m hoping this discussion will sensitize all of us to the very fair issues that you raise going forward.
I also join with others in hoping that there’s a way to merge the PAIL list into your own, and share the burden of maintenance. It does seem (as others have said) that PAIL is an enthusiastic and active subset of your broader list, and therefore serves the function of connecting people who are actively engaged in finding a new community after experiencing IF. I can’t say for sure as I haven’t joined it, but given what I’ve read about it and comments of people here that seems to be the case. In that sense, I think it is a healthy and positive thing. They seem to be making it open to anyone, and I haven’t felt that the intent is to be exclusive in any way (although I suppose I can understand why some might feel that way). Having said that, it would have been much better if they had first expressed their need to you, and then joined forces with you to figure out how to meet the need.
Most importantly, I wanted to express my personal appreciation for you and all that you do for this community. If it wasn’t for you, I would have never gotten started blogging. I would have never gotten connected as quickly and easily as I have to the many, many wonderful women who have supported me through a difficult time. I can still recall the day when I reached out to you with my new blog link. I couldn’t believe how responsive and helpful you were, and how quickly things got rolling for me after that. You are an incredible person, and no matter how this situation gets resolved I just want you to know how much you are appreciated by me and the broader community.
I hope this comes to resolution quickly, and I hope most of all that you walk away from this with a sense of how much you and your work means to all of us.
In hindsight, probably engaging in a larger discussion before making any kind of a decision would have been prudent. I didn’t start blogging or find the ALI community until well after parenthood. I have always felt kind of on the fringes of belonging here. I suppose I was hoping that PAIL would feel a little more comfortable for me. Oh, Mel. I’m so sorry this has been hurtful! I don’t think anyone, including Elphie, intended that though I can see why it has happened. Not sure where we go from here? But perhaps the fact that it’s “out there” is at least a place to start?
Well now I feel shitty, shitty, shitty. So shitty. I emailed you personally Mel, rather that write more about it here. I’m just so sorry that you’re upset by all this, though I totally understand why and think you have every right to be.
I also joined PAIL and have to admit I was super excited and didn’t even consider the fact that it might hurt people, honestly I had also forgotten that the parenting after IF section existed in “the list”.
The reason I joined is because I’ve struggled to blog since I got pregnant. I’m constantly worried that I’ll hurt someone’s feelings, I want to blog about how I’m feelign but often times I feel like I can’t because it might hurt someone. I also HATE it when people leave behind their IF blogs to start parenting blogs, so I’ve felt like I’m stuck in the middle…
Somehow joining an active list of people struggling with the same things as me (struggling to blog about pregnancy after IF with out hurting people) made me feel included. I hate that I didn’t consider that it made others feel excluded. I still think the list is a goood thing but I don’t think it replaces what you have created and maintain, which is an incredible and important resourse to all IFers past and present.
I think that if the point was that THE blogroll’s list of parenting after IF blogs wasn’t being tended as people would have liked, then someone should have come to Mel about it. Now that I hear about the ICLW activity going on, it seems pretty awful someone has taken Mel’s stuff and basically moved it somewhere else in an effort to be exclusionary. It may be that those that signed up didn’t realize feelings would be hurt, but I have to believe the organizer had to have that thought go through her head and that’s what really bothers me.
I have to admit, when I saw the blogroll, I was like, “What in the hell?” It definitely felt like a kick in the face. I’m not a mommy blogger, so I don’t fit in there. But I fit in in the ALI community. But now there is a second, hybrid of the ALI/Mommy blogger community…more places I don’t fit in!
And I thought the whole point of the ALI community was that you find your place to fit in…I mean, I’m not a single infertile mommy, but I still can comment on their blogs. I’m not a woman going through secondary infertility, but I can comment on their blogs…why make a separate list?
I adore you, Mel, and I definitely am grateful EVERYDAY that you created a place that I fit in.
Piping in with another comment. First, I’m not sure what all is involved in upkeep with the blogroll. I have absolutely no web skills whatsoever, but I’d like you to keep the parenting room alive, so I’ll put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and say I’d be happy to help out though I might need some educating on how to do so!
Second, a second ICLW? Seriously? That’s appalling. And to think that the organizers of this list posted a call on Lost and Found (which by necessity means they’re well aware of Mel’s blogroll and the goings on of her sites), well, that’s disgusting. See, why I understand the argument that anyone can have her own blogroll (I mean, most of us, including me, have tiny ones) as lists of the random things we read, which open up other paths to other readers who may or may not find their way here…this phenomenon is very different.
I’m reading through comments and feeling quite saddended that you’ve been hurt Mel, yet partly frustrated & hurt myself. One person wrote ” it seems pretty awful someone has taken Mel’s stuff and basically moved it somewhere else in an effort to be exclusionary” – and I would say that the intention of those of us who joined PAIL was not at all to be exclusionary, and that Elphaba did not copy/paste your blogroll, but invited people to join if they liked. Like many have said – ICLW is now frustrating, b/c people don’t visit the blogs of those who are parenting (which I get, but still…) so I think we were all just excited about being part of a blogroll where people didn’t avoid you… but yes, more research should have been done on how to get that section of your blogroll a little more updated/active. That being said, it wasn’t, and that’s done, so let’s be positive moving forward about how we can all work together to get that section of the blogroll better represented instead of saying mean things about Elphaba or those who have joined PAIL.
Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help with that section and I’ll gladly lend a hand.
Mel, the work and time you pour into our community is legendary. And the gratitude so many of us feel towards you, and likely do not express nearly well enough, runs deep. This whole post and the comments section has only solidified my initial feelings about the PAIL list and that was that it felt very much divisive and exclusive which could only prove hurtful to our sisters in the trenches. While I don’t believe that was their intent with its formation, it was my impression from the first glance. And I’m someone that’s been beyond lucky enough to leave my IF days in the past and am entrenched in pregnancy and parenting – if I felt that way, I knew (and now really know) I couldn’t have been alone and for that reason, I chose to not join PAIL.
Your frustration is valid. Thanks for being strong enough to express it. And PLEASE, don’t ever lose sight of the fact that you and your work were the core parts of so many of us weathering our personal IF storms.
@ Josey – AMEN!
Instead of flinging mud at each other, can’t we please use this as an opportunity to bring this communtiy together?
Let’s have some productive and positive ideas brought forth!
I am parenting after IF, and still consider myself an infertile, and actively comment on lots of blogs written by people who are not pregnant, who have no living children, who are feeling their way through the journey. I still read LFCA, and offer support where I think I can, though I know that it can be hard to reciprocate my comments if people don’t want to read a blog about someone who has achieved the dream.
I’ve always felt that this was what the community gave to me when I was struggling: hope. Love. Support. All of which YOU made possible, by creating it. But it’s also true that now that I’m “on the other side,” and I worry about unintentionally hurting or offending fellow IF bloggers. I was actually excited to see that there was going to be a session at BlogHer about the “expiration” of IF blogs, because it’s something I ask myself about. Most of my readers are from this community. I *want* to fit in, because my heart is here. But how long will it have me? I don’t want to go anywhere else.
And yet … I don’t want to be removed from your blogroll. I’d rather get no new readers than feel like I had lost my connection to this community. I confess I joined PAIL, because I thought that the creator had at least talked with you about it, but now that I see that’s not the case, I am considering removing myself from the list. While it’s true that I didn’t get many comments during the last few rounds of ICLW that I signed up for, I don’t think it’s right for someone to take your ideas and twist them into something exclusive, especially when you’ve always been open to all comers — even people who aren’t infertile at all! This community, for me, has always been about something even larger than infertility, a generosity of spirit that I can’t exactly describe. Even though I’ve only been blogging for two years, I’ve been around the internet for much longer, and I haven’t found that anywhere else.
I have a lot of thoughts on this but for now I just want to touch on a few things:
–I feel like the crux of this is a parenting after IF list as part of the umbrella ALI community versus an entirely separate community. I much prefer the idea that parenting after IF is just another part of the ALI whole than a separate community altogether.
–I’d like to second the notion that at times your blogroll is a little to big and many of the blogs too old to be very helpful. This is not at all a criticism of you. Your work and leadership in this community is second to none. All that being said, I absolutely volunteer my free time to help maintain your blogroll. Perhaps since the community gains so much from it then the community can give back a little? Like I said, I would be more than happy to do this.
–I really hope you don’t remove that part of your blog roll although I completely understand your reasoning behind the desire to do so.
–I wasn’t aware of the comment event aspect of PAIL. ICLW is very clear about where bloggers are on their journey. I for one never minded coming across bloggers who are parenting. If I can’t deal with I just leave the blog. But more often than not I leave a comment because, a, that’s the point of ICLW, and b, as I said, I generally am OK with blogs that talk about parenting and pregnancy and consider it my own responsibility to censor what I don’t want to see. I’d much rather do that than the parenting folks self segregate themselves.
Thanks for writing Mel. I think this is an important discussion.
Oh wow, Mel. I’m SO sorry. This is the first I’ve heard about PAIL, and I can see why this would be hurtful to you. Personally, I don’t feel like deleting pregnant or parenting bloggers would accomplish anything. But you should do whatever you feel is right for YOU. I would just hate for you to change what you’re doing because of this. And, for the record, I think you do a fantastic job of keeping this community together. People who don’t love and appreciate your “kumbayaness” don’t know what they are missing.
I’m so out of the loop that I have no idea what this PAIL you’re talking about is. But – you? You’re awesome and I don’t know how you do it and big ((hugs)) through the intertubes to you.
Oh wow. I joined PAIL because I thought it would be a more active group for those parenting after infertility and honestly, I had forgotten there was a section for that on your blog roll. I didn’t really think it through and I can absolutely understand why you (and you should) feel hurt.
I think the problem is that no matter your circumstances or diagnosis, there is always going to be some category of ALI from which you feel excluded. That’s ok. It happens. Here’s where I find myself upon rejoining the blogosphere: parenting a son who is biologically mine but I did not carry. I’m still as infertile as I was 7 years ago when we started TTC. My endo and uterine anomalies haven’t disappeared. I’m not sure if we will TTC again, meaning pursue another surrogacy, so while I empathize very much with those in the trenches still, in some ways they hurt me as much as my success hurts them. I have gotten to know a lot of other mom bloggers and that’s great, but I still feel somewhat foreign and alien, especially when they get pregnant with second, third or more. I don’t want to focus exclusively on IF on my blog, but I can’t help but think and write about it because it has become part of who I am.
So basically that’s a long-winded way of saying, where do I fit in now? Parenting. Still infertile. Still stung by easily-achieved pregnancies. I’ll never blog about morning sickness or contractions (mine anyway) because I won’t have them. I’m still between worlds and that’s why I joined PAIL.
I think it’s interesting that many commenters are saying PAIL is exclusive and divisive since it’s for those of us who’ve “achieved the dream”. The reality is that many of us already felt excluded and put on a “Will Not Visit” list, so the exclusion cuts both ways.
Your blog roll is the mother of all ALI lists, and I agree that you should have been consulted on the emergence of PAIL and how to integrate it. And I believe it should be integrated; if that means you have help maintaining it, then I’ll be happy to volunteer as well.
I can understand the need and desire for a place to fit in, I think we all look for that in many different parts of our lives. And for many of us, IF, pregnancy and (hopefully) parenting play a major part in our life. In that respect, I can understand the desire to create a place where you feel you fit in if you don’t think you have that right now.
I know for myself personally, I’m having a slightly difficult time figuring out where I belong in my everyday life. I’m finally pregnant and will (hopefully) get to join my friends and co-workers in this thing called parenthood, but many of them have not had the journey I have had. I’m all too aware of that, even if they are not. But for my blog and blogging community, I have made it what I want it to be and I find that I do fit in here.
What I didn’t come to realize was the double list and double the work of having two places to look at. I for one would not want to have to go to two different sites for different phases of one journey in life. I am so very happy with this community that has been created here, at Stirrup Queens et al. I have felt nothing but acceptance and finding a place where I can belong since day one. I truly hope you don’t get rid of the parenting after IF room in your blog roll, it is a part of the whole.
Is there something I can do to help organize or sort? I’d hate for you to get burnt out or feel burdened by what you do. This whole place called Stirrup Queens is priceless (I think it shows by the comments in this thread alone) and I’m not going anywhere!
This downright angers me. Elphaba clearly is copying everything you do! She even mentions on her site about doing some feature blog posts from around the blogging community, much akin to your Friday Blog Roundup. WTF?! And I’m sorry to all the parents out there who lose readership but honestly you shouldn’t be surprised. My blog is an adoption blog, people who visit want to read about my life through adoption and my history of infertility. As all the blogs I read either become pregnant or successfully adopt, I have to weed them out. Otherwise my blogroll of Parenting Blogs would be a mile long. It happens. I expect the same thing when we bring a child home. But if you have issues with that then expand your horizons and try to find new readers outside the ALI community. If you are depressed about the ICLW and the fact that no one comment, talk to MEL about it! But to copy her blogroll, ICLW and the Blog Roundup is purely shameful.
I’ve been sitting with this comment window open for close to 20 minutes, trying to wrap my brain around what I want to say. It’s a mishmash of thoughts, so bear with me.
*enter slightly hormonal Keiko, wielding her “Woe is Me” Bitch Wand(TM)*
Man, what I wouldn’t give to have the luxury to pick and choose which parenting after IF blogroll I could sign up for. Boy howdy that would be just awesome.
/bitchiness.
Even with treatment on the very near horizon, what I wouldn’t give to say I’m a mommy or parenting blogger. Just had to own that and put that out there. And, b/c I’m not on that “side” yet, I’d never heard of PAIL until now.
Ok, so here are my 45 cents:
Mel, I see you as a huge inspiration to the online ALI community and on a personal level, an inspiration for me and the work I’ve come to do in the last few years. I *found* this community via one blogger who had your blogroll link posted in her sidebar. When I clicked through those 3 years ago, there were only about 1600 blogs on it at the time. To see it has grown to over 3100 is fucking incredible for two reasons 1) I’m so glad more ppl feel the need to get their stories out there and 2) what a beacon you’ve become in this community.
You’re our hub, Mel.
Personally, when I started my blog and read about all the cool shit you do, I was like “I want to be like Mel’s blog when my blog’s all grown up.” Your posting frequency challenged me to up my game and post more than once a week. Your amazing, heartfelt efforts to encourage a culture of comments still challenges me to up my game and be a better commenter.
When I read Navigating the Land of IF, I said to myself, I want to publish a book about infertility too. I’ve had a bit of hero worship of you over the years that I’m not ashamed to admit. In a lot of ways, you’re like the cool older sister in the ALI world online – I can speak for myself but I’m sure a lot of folks agree: we look up to you. We want to do all the cool shit you do too, yanno?
There’s hero worship, and then there’s outright copycatting.
I feel totally comfortable in admitting that yes, I created The Infertility Voice to be a leading blog within this community. Did I rip off what you do here? Not at all. You inspired me because your blog, writing, and publishing work have shown me the possibilities that exist.
The cool thing is that as I’ve started on new ventures and tried new things with my blog, I could bounce ideas off you. You’ve made it more than clear around here that yes, people can get in touch with you.
To know that a section of your blogroll has been syphoned elsewhere for the purpose to basically replicate one of your blog traditions/memes… and to know that it just happened, without any kind of outreach?
Well, it sucks. It’s counter to the entire spirit of openness you’ve cultivated in your space here. It’s a bit of flattery yes, but a serious misstep in approach, esp. w/o having maybe giving you a little heads up.
So what does, Keiko Zoll, perpetual fixer suggest? Reach out to her. Share your thoughts. Then delete that email before you hit send and rewrite it again owning your anger but leaving the angry out of your words, if they makes sense. You have every right to be angry and hurt and I think you can come to a discussion with Elphaba owning your feelings but w/o attacking. (B/c Mel Ford doesn’t strike me as the attacking kind.)
Hmm. I included two posts that I wanted to highlight on my last post somewhat like the Roundup. At what point does it become copying vs curating good content?
Mel, I respect you and the community you’ve created so much, and I feel awful and horrible for contributing to the hurt you are feeling over the PAIL list.
Also, b/c she has been on my mind very much so recently – where would Mo of Mommy Odyssey fit in? Where does anyone who’s pg after IF fit in who goes on to experience a loss?
Lots of sections about whether you’re currently PG or if you have a child under 6 mos or a two years… but noticably empty is any kind of “Recent loss” section. And what happens if you experience a loss? Do you get booted off the list? And where is that support for you once you are no longer on the “Pg after IF” section?
It’s a definite zone that’s lacking in the PAIL space now that I’ve checked it out and I wonder – can PAIL be as welcoming as the broad spectrum of ALI support you’ve curated here?
First I would like to say that I’m extremely grateful that I stumbled upon the ALI bloglist. I am a SMC so I always felt like a little like an interloper, but was thankful to be included and to connect with other women who needed to use ART to create their families.
Many of the blogs I read have joined the PAIL bloglist. I chose not to because it seemed too exclusive and I was afraid that it would do exactly what is happening now, dividing this community.
But I do see why there was a perceived need for a separate list along with commenting event. When I got my BFP I lost followers, and my readers decreased. ICLW use to be my favorite time of the month. I no longer participate. I tried in the beginning of my pregnancy, but like others have commented, I got very few visitors. I also felt a backlash from some of the bloggers who were still TTC. I would visit blogs that openly mocked mom blogs and especially the pregnancy memes. I visited blogs that blasted bloggers for posting ultrasound pictures, belly shots, and nursery pictures. I almost closed my blog because I felt like I didn’t belong anymore. I got over it. I was thankful for what I got from the ALI community and I want to be sensitive to those still trying to complete their families, but I needed my blog to be about what I was experiencing now. I still read the LFCA each week, and I still go through the ICLW list to look for more blogs. I don’t list my blog and I don’t leave comments that can link back to me for bloggers that have recently experienced a loss or seem to be having a particularly rough time.
Mel, I’m sorry this has hurt you and I can see why it does. I don’t think that was the intent. I think someone saw a need and decided to do something about it. Rather than being divisive maybe this conversation can bring the community back together.
First of all, I’m so sad to see that you’ve been hurt by this and it’s totally understandable. No one wants to give their time, talent, and love to a community only feel squashed and copied like your work was no big deal. We are all SO appreciative of you and what you do for us.
I had seen a couple of things about PAIL, but admittedly they were on pregnancy pages I just kind of skim because I’m not in a good space right now. I honestly thought it was just a badge to put on your site, which seemed like a good idea to me. Like one could go to a site, see the badge, and know that they should move on if they aren’t up for a pregnancy or parenting blog. But now it sounds like a “new club” and frankly, that hurts! It’s like the “cool kids” all got picked for kickball and the rest of us are stuck playing tetherball.
When I write my posts as a woman who has never had anything resembling a positive pregnancy test, I write it hoping that one day we will be successful, and that someone will find me through your page and have a little hope. I like to look though the parenting room on occasion and see if there is anyone I can connect with whose story can give me hope. If the PAILers go off to their own kickball playground, how will the rest of us ever learn how to play? How will we know there is something to look forward to after tetherball?
I have always seen your blogroll and this community you have pulled together as something that both reaches forward and reaches backward, Mel. By this I mean that when things weren’t going well for me, I could reach forward to people who had been down the path ahead of me, and get encouragement and support that carried me through the darkest days. It helped to know there was light at the end of the tunnel. Now that I am on the other side (well, at least as far as #1 is concerned), I see it as my role in the community to reach backward to people who are still in the trenches to give them encouragement and hope. Do they respond to all of my comments? Nope. But then, I didn’t always when I was in their position, either, despite the fact I really appreciated their thoughts.
The reality is that infertility is a spectrum, right? We all hope to move from one end to the other. That’s the point. So if all goes well, we’ll all move through rooms in your house. I would be really bummed to be kicked out of your house (in both a literal and figurative sense, since I think you are so cool!). I like to be in there as an inspiration to people who can find my story, and read my archives. I hope it helps someone.
I will say that when we started TTC #2, I would have liked to have been able to easily find people who were in my position. Maybe I just didn’t find the right room in the house (I really focused on other TTC over 35 blogs, and maybe that was the wrong approach). It would have been nice to have a way to identify those people, so I could find people who were in my same place. By the same token, I can’t imagine going anywhere other than your blogroll for that kind of information or support. The reason? Life changes quickly. From being part of this community, I know all too well that you can be TTC#2 one minute, pregnant the next, and losing a child a few minutes later. You support women in ALL phases of their journey, and for that I will be forever grateful (and in awe!).
This is just so fraught with complications
Ok, where to start: I’m friends with Elphie and I truly think she had only good intentions when starting the blogroll. I can tell you a couple of things that immediately come to mind, but let me start out by saying that I don’t think that usurping your amazing work was even close to the intention. I call you our “Oprah” and I stand by it. I know many of us here feel the same way. Here’s how I see it:
Most women find you and the blogroll when they are in the throes of IF. I can tell you that tough I’ve been to the miscarriage section dozens of times, I’ve never been to the parenting section. I honestly didn’t even think to look at it (though Belle’s comment about finding inspiration makes me think I may have to start).
but I never thought to look – because I’m in the trenches.
Because of my own (and now recent painful) history of pregnancy loss, I would never even CONSIDER signing up for PAIL while pregnant.
On the other hand, I never participated in ICLW during any of my (horrifically failed) pregnancies either. And once I lost my Nadav, I immediately signed up again.
I think the issue is lack of awareness, and an innocent idea to help those who are struggling to redefine their blogger identities, just like Elphie is right now. I know that as my pregnancy progressed I was more often than not on the fence about posting anything, knowing that 99.9% of my readers were still in the trenches. I know I lost a lot of readers once I was in my second trimester, and I felt guilty sometimes about posting at all.
It all just becomes so complicated.
I wasn’t offended by PAIL, and I don’t think it was intended in any way to infringe on the amazing thing that you have built here.
I see it more as a “support group” of sorts of women who are struggling to redefine their identities now that they’re on the other side. I also think that it can easily stand alongside your amazing work without either of you eliminating the need for the other.
Oh – and if you need a volunteer to check up on the miscarriage room and help you maintain the list, I work from home, and could definitely handle doing a monthly (or quarterly or whatever) reorganization. If you need it, just say the word.
I’m not reading the comments — I just don’t have it in me right now — I just wanted to weigh in with this: Mel — you are my link to this world — you held my hand through it — your community became my community — and it ushered me into the world of parenthood — and I am absolutely certain I wouldn’t have had the guts to do IVF had I not had this forum, this community YOU. It breaks my heart to think of my blog being removed from this community because I’m now parenting my toddler I conceived through IVF.
Mel,
I feel terrible that PAIL has hurt you. To be honest, I’ve never been a part of ICLW because I only want to comment where I want to comment. I had no idea that PAIL was reinventing the wheel this way or going in this direction. I’m not in this to hurt anyone, and if it comes down to a choice, I’ll drop PAIL. My computer knowledge is limited, but I’m willing to try and help reshape the parenting after infertility room of your blog list.
But to be honest, Mel, when I had my miscarriage right before Christmas, you were the only parenting after infertility blogger that gave me any support. And I needed that support. To whom do I explain that it is still hurtful to have a miscarriage, even when you already have children? How many people here have commented that they wish they could move to the other side? Or choose between two blog lists? Or that we want to put the PAIL badge on our blogs as some badge of honor? WTH? I’m just blogging. I don’t want to get smacked for having the audacity to still be trying even though I got pregnant to keep for the first time 7 years ago. I don’t think anyone has found my blog from your blog roll, except for you, and for your comments I am eternally grateful.
Almost all the people who read my blog now I connected with through Cyclesista. I don’t see anybody slamming them. I signed up with PAIL because most of the people in the ‘parenting after infertility’ Universe are too smart to still be trying, and I need to be around those people, too.
Well, wow. Who knew all this was out there? I found the ALI community after I had conquered my issues (i.e. had my daughter). I had (have?) secondary infertility, and have since given up the pursuit of the second child. I have never really felt like I fit in to the ALI community. But, what I have done was jump in and try to connect with people, regardless of their circumstances. That includes people inside and outside the ALI community. Having Mel to direct me through the blog roll and LFCA and Creme de la Creme was an easy way for me to find people with whom I might be able to connect. I don’t actually have much in common with anyone who currently reads my blog…I’m interested in their lives and they find me mildly entertaining?
I don’t know what the original idea behind this new blogroll was, but it seems to have grown into a clique of people who aren’t getting what they want out of the ALI community. So, OK, that’s fine. But it seems kind of…manipulative to use one of the most effective ALI community support systems (LFCA) to promote your group when you find the ALI community to be unresponsive to your needs.
I want to go all villagers with pitchforks (thank you to the Bloggess for giving me that phrase. I use it often) because I feel like this is hurtful to my favorite community organizer. It probably wasn’t meant to be, but it certainly seems to have ended up that way.
I’m sorry you’re hurt and angry, Mel, and I can see why now. Honestly, none of that occurred to me when I first read about PAIL. My blog is listed on your blogroll in the adoption category, which is where I want it. But I’ve also placed my blog on several other sites’ blogrolls in the miscarriage category. I thought it would be nice to join PAIL (since my daughter arrived last week!) as just another place to find others and help them find me. I never perceived it as a sub-set of people trying to remove themselves from the community you’ve built and copy your ideas; I would never support such a thing. BTW, if you want volunteers to help with the blogroll, I’d help in the adoption rooms. Thank you for all you do. I would not have made it this far in my journey without the support of the ALI community you’ve built. Truly.
It didn’t occur to me that PAIL could be so hurtful to you. I don’t think anyone would want to hurt you or tread on you. My sense is that PAIL arose not out of a wish to leave this community or to duplicate your work–the parenting section certainly served as beacon of hope to me, and ICLW is an awesome, awesome idea–but out of a sense that there are mixed feelings about parenting blogs in this community and a desire for to be part of an active space without fear of being hurtful to someone else. As a parent, I know that when I click on a PAIL blog it will be someone who is actively looking for a parenting after IF community, whereas I feel almost guilty participating in ICLW because I’m afraid that my blog is not welcome to people who are still dealing with IF actively on a daily basis. In that sense, a parallel structure on a miniature scale, if that’s what it is, meant no disrespect to you (quite the contrary!) and was not intended to be exclusive, but rather, a way to not tread on those who don’t want to read parenting blogs. Maybe I’m wrong. I guess what I would really like to know is if people who are actively trying to conceive (or adopt) baby number don’t like parenting blogs being part of ICLW, as seems clear many authors of parenting blogs feel is the case. You, Mel, and some others who don’t have specifically parenting blogs, may be a different case–what I’m asking is if explicitly parenting blogs, albeit ones tinged with the IF struggle, are or are not welcome by all.
I just wanted to say (I know this is my fourth comment, I KNOW I need to stop) that from what I understand the PAIL blogroll did not happen in an organized way. There wasn’t a group of women emailing behind closed doors about feeling left out and wanting to create a new blogroll where they would not feel left out. What happened was one person asked if people were interested, a bunch of people commented that they were and within days it was there and you could sign up. Some people did so immediately and some signed up after thinking about it for a while. Later, there was talk, again by just one person, of maybe doing a regular commenting event along with some other community-building exercises. These ideas did not come about because of collaborative discussion on the part of the members, at least not that I know of. They were just thrown out there, along with questions about what the protocol would be if a pregnancy or baby were lost (the need for this discussion definitely made me uncomfortable and that is when I wrote my post.)
I just want to make it clear that from what I, and I think most people who joined PAIL, understand this list emerged organically from a common need for pregnant and parenting bloggers to find other active bloggers like them. No one was trying to go behind anyone’s backs or be create this kind of divisiveness.
I also don’t agree with the fact that PAIL was submitted to LFCA for posting. Again, that was not something done with the agreement of all involved. There was no discussion about it, it just happened and I’m not even sure who did it. I doubt most people on PAIL are.
I joined PAIL and I will take responsibility for how that made people feel, but I will not take responsibility for everything it has done. PAIL is not a group of woman making joint decisions and it should be referred to in that way.
And while I respect and regret the pain this has caused Mel and others, I do think that PAIL came about for a reason and I hope that after the dust has settled we can have a thoughtful conversation about why PAIL came to be, instead of just telling everyone who is a part of it that they should get over themselves for feeling left out of ICLW or other parts of the ALI community.
Obviously this wasn’t handled well and I am so sorry that people were hurt. At the same time, I hope we can take advantage of this need for dialogue to come to a place of better understanding. This community is too amazing a place to let something like this tear it down, and I hope the we are strong enough to let it ultimately bring us closer together.
Mel, I heart you.
Firstly, I’m sorry that this has caused you distress. I can say with certainty that was not the intent of Elphaba or anyone who has linked up to the PAIL community, myself included.
Have you read Elphaba’s post that got things started? http://eggsandsperm.com/2012/02/23/whats-in-an-infertility-blog/ There was no malice intended. There was discussion about a common feeling of “existing on the edge of a community”.
I honestly don’t even know if my blog is on the official ALI blogroll, I’ve never participated in ICLW and I don’t really know a lot about the boundaries of internet blog communities or management. Are there boundaries? I have always evolved in the blogs I read by clicking through my commenters and through their own blog rolls/commenters, yours included… and we all have IF in common. I also am connected with the IF community through Twitter and message boards, along with Resolve. I have connected with the community in any way possible for support.
I started my blog as a SMC blog. After time, SMC fell to the wayside and it became an IF blog. I struggled to read pregnancy & parenting blogs while dealing with IF, and often stopped reading them because I needed to protect myself. Now that I’m pregnant (thank you God!) I struggled with trying to balance sensitivity for my friends still in the same place I just was, with wanting to chronicle my pregnancy and find others in the same place as me. I am getting there but I will say I still blog a lot less, and about less than I would like because I fear hurting someone. And I also know that its possible for the unthinkable to happen at any moment (but I keep my sanity by not expressing my fears around that). I am still actively cheering on and supporting my friends who are still cycling and struggling
I think the bottom line is that when Elphaba started the conversation, there was a perceived gap in general. Maybe it’s because those of us graduating into these new stages have not looked in the right places to see that something similar does exist (I didn’t even think about checking out your blogroll to see if such a segment existed)? Or it could be that there was a gap in the existing segment.
My stomach turns when there is divisiveness in the general IF community. I am so sorry you are hurting, Mel. And I suspect Elphaba is likely hurting (once she is aware you are hurting) because that was not her intent.
I hope that some positive dialog can come from this in the long run, regardless of what the resolution is.
To answer your question, Mel, I would hate to see you remove the parenting portion of your blogroll. I’m not there yet, but I hope to be someday. I, too, would hate to be “booted out” of this community because I finally reach the goal I’ve been pursuing for so long.
When I first read about PAIL, I had a definite pang of jealousy. Whether it was intentional or not misses the point: PAIL is, by definition, exclusive. And, again whether intentional or not, it clearly steps on your toes, infringing on an idea (ICLW) that was your brainchild.
I have my own issues with ICLW — in contrast to many others, I find it hard to find NON-parenting blogs listed! There seem to be more and more pregnant and parenting blogs every month. Despite this frustration, I continue to sign up, because even if it only garners me one new reader or helps me to find one new blog — that’s one I didn’t have before. That’s a connection that I need.
I hope that those involved with starting PAIL will read these posts with an open mind and an open heart. I look forward to hearing an explanation of her motivation, and would totally embrace a joint-effort for maintenance purposes. That being said, I don’t think that there’s a need for a separate list, and I would hope that the parenting after IF bloggers will also stick around here. We need the inspiration, even when its difficult to read them.
A final note: I find it interesting how individual circumstances influence our perceptions of this community. I would wager that just as many “in-the-trenchers” think that pregnancy and parenting blogs have taken over and find it difficult to find the support they so desperately seek. It’s all a matter of perception.
sure seems like a lot of people parenting after IF saying they don’t feel welcome at ICLW…what if all of these people, myself included, sign up this month (making sure to make it clear with those three words where they are in the journey)..like a mass sign up instead of the current mass avoidance that it seems is occurring..wouldn’t that make ICLW feel a little more welcoming to all parts of the IF journey and a way to find each other’s blogs then?
After reading your post and reading/skimming through the majority of comments, my heart hurts. It’s that feeling you get when you kinda feel like you did something wrong, but not sure how/when/what to admit.
I joined PAIL a couple weeks ago, and to be honest, I didn’t think a thing about it… except that I was excited that I might finally find women like me who gave birth to a live baby, but somehow still feel very much part of the IF community. And, looking back, I feel awful that I didn’t realize that what I may have been searching for – a blog community that grew in the same areas that I found I did – was right under my nose. My mistake. I didn’t do my homework.
Mel, you are the CAPTAIN of everything IF-related, in my book. After reading this post and having that feeling of, “Did I do something wrong?”, I was about 2 seconds from asking to be removed from the PAIL list.
But, I am torn. I saw an immediate increase in readership and comments on my blog in the last few weeks – very obviously connected to me being added to PAIL. Am I that greedy that all I want is readers and comments? Absolutely not, but it sure is nice to have a few new followers and commenters who are sharing in my journey. I just feel badly now that I never turned to your resources to see if I could get the same support.
I hope you will not eliminate any opportunities from your blog… I’ve been with you since I started this whole process, and I have no intention of not being part of what you are doing. If there’s anyway some of us out in blogland can help, please post and I’d be happy to jump in.
Huh, it never occurred to me that people would get upset or angry over PAIL. I joined it because since my failed FET – my one and only chance of adding a sibling for the Chieftain – I find it incredibly difficult to come here. I feel like I’m going through infertility all over again, and once again there is no room for me at the table. I am infertile but not cycling, I have a child but there will never be another. Too many people irl have told me what a wonderful ‘choice’ I’ve made by stopping at one, and how difficult it is having two or more and quite frankly, when I come here there is no respite.
KH99 @ #69 really is spot on, but I feel the need to include my little voice, too.
PAIL is a new idea that fills a VOID. Let it be and relax! I never comment and I never thought when I did that it would be unkind. This post is the most DIVISIVE thing I’ve seen in years.
For me, the biggest reason not to split the blogroll is that being pregnant doesn’t mean you’ve moved to the other side — too many of us have been pregnant then unpregnant and back to square one.
Also, I know I am very much in the minority, but I am not a parenting/mommy blogger. I am an infertility blogger who now happens to have children.
Finally, having volunteered a bunch of my own time a few years ago to help you clean up the blogroll, many people belong in all sorts of categories. It is much more useful for readers if people with, for example, unusual diagnoses or particular family-building strategies are listed under those specific categories than “parenting.” Otherwise, the only people listed under those categories becomes those who are having persistent lack of success or those who have just started.
So I am back, with more and perhaps similarly disjointed thoughts.
I have been on assorted infertility boards where hurt feelings have emerged in a way that to me seems similar to what’s happened here, and I have seen those situations progress both well and badly. It saddens me to see them on this wonderfully inclusive site and I hope that you (Mel), this blog, and the community (or communities — I could see it as either singular or plural) it serves won’t be damaged by this.
It has occurred to me that, perhaps akin to what Oro describes above, I really only became a regular here after I finished ttc. Or at least after I had succeeded in having one child. Ironic in that the internet really was (as noted in my earlier comment above) absolutely key to my persistence, but somehow at the time I was going through treatment, though I knew (at least for part of my journey) of this blog, I found it didn’t fully speak to me or serve my needs. I think honestly it was more than I could take at the time. Now I come here because I enjoy Mel’s writing and because I want to give back to the community (mostly through LFCA). Weirdly, it is precisely the size and inclusivity of this community that both make it so tremendously valuable and yet, may make it not the right place for some of its “members” (in terms of the experiences we are having) at some times.
And finally, with regard to the whole ICLW … now, as noted above, I don’t blog. I have never participated in ICLW despite my desire to give back (done blogging-wise sporadically and mostly in connection with LFCA). And I know in broad outline that ICLW and Mel are connected. But truthfully I could not up front have told you that ICLW was Mel’s. I’d have readily believed that it was a standard blogging convention/practice that spanned multiple blogging communities and allowed each community to strengthen its (internal) ties and serve its members. And I have to say with regard to another blogroll taking the idea … well to me, it seems sort of like this. There is in my (IRL) community an institution that as far as I know is unique (I googled it and the entire first page of results is about where I live). Basically what it is, is a go-out-to-eat-to-help-feed-those-in-need event; on the single day that the event takes place, local restaurants participate, contribute 5% of their gross, and 5% is added to every restaurant tab (so that each party eating also pays an extra 5% over their actual bill). Now we (heck, I) could debate whether this is a good institution or not (as compared to say just donating your entire would-be tab to the homeless shelter and eating rice and beans at home, or even skipping a meal), but it exists, lots of people participate (myself included at least sometimes), and it does in fact raise quite a good sum of money for a good cause.
Which … suppose some other cause that we all agree is a good cause, say reducing pre-term births, wanted to use that same mechanism as a fundraiser. Is that a problem? I mean obviously someone invented the eat-out-raise-money-for-a-good-cause program (I don’t know who), and someone organizes it, and it is, as far as I know, unique (unlike, say, run 5K for a good cause though that, too, must have been done first by someone somewhere). And if done locally — well, I’d guess it would take money away from its original cause as well as raising money for the new cause. Probably there would be a net gain in total receipts for the 2 organizations (feeding those in need and reducing pre-term births), but a decline for the first one relative to what it got when it was the only organization doing this.
Which I guess is a bit my reaction to the idea of someone setting up an ICLW list for another group. I mean, on the one hand, imitation is the clearest form of flattery. And net I’d guess there will be more commenting and more connections and presumably that’s a good thing. But on the other hand, there is a division within the ALI community where PAIL is set up only to serve a subset of the larger community SQ serves, and presumably tandem ICLWs will subtract from the total number of Cs resulting from SQ — from Mel’s (considerable) efforts. And perhaps result in a less cohesive community and experience, where instead of trying to span boundaries (to reach across the many things separating those ttc and those pregnant or parenting), those who participate (in one or the other ICLW) would be embracing, or at least accepting, those boundaries. So I can certainly see that, say, it might be a problem for another ALI blogroll to set up an ICLW in a way that if, for example, a parasailing blogroll wanted to adopt the institution that wouldn’t be seen as a problem in the same way.
Again, these are just further, and discombobulated musings. But do please allow me to say, Mel, that I count myself among the many who are very grateful for all you do, and have done, for the ALI community, and not least among those things, playing a key role in guiding it toward inclusivity, openness, and transparency.
Mel, I have nothing significant to add to the discussion. I saw the blurb about PAIL and didn’t feel the need to join. I’m just sorry that you’ve been hurt. You’ve done so much for this community and I know that I often take you and the work you do for granted. I just want to say I’m sorry and thank you
Mel: You are, without a question, a goddess for all the work you do on behalf of those coming to terms with infertility regardless of where they are on their journey. I am doubly grateful that you include a section for those of us who didn’t go on to parent. Hardly a day goes by that someone doesn’t appear from your blogroll to C2T or A Fresh Start clearly looking for a welcome as they make the transition to a life without once sought after children. In fact, I find it fascinating that so many commenters here seem to think there are only two outcomes: those TTC or those parenting after infertility (through successful treatment or adoption). It further underscores the need for the careful nurturing you do … much love, Pamela
oops, didn’t mean to write “outcomes” in my above comment — should have typed “categories”…
Mel, I think that the work that you have done for all of us is irreplaceable. I saw some of the chatter about PAIL and ignored it, not out of a position of deep thoughtfulness but just because I don’t really see the point. I have one of those blogs that people may complain about not having been archived since I post rarely, but the fact that I post rarely doesn’t mean that my blog is dead (I may post again tomorrow! You never know!), or that I don’t participate in the community. I’m out here reading and commenting daily, and I absolutely rely on the bridges that YOU, Melissa Ford, built and continue to build, to navigate my way through this community. I’m sorry to hear that the members of PAIL don’t think that they are getting enough attention. I comment on many of their blogs regularly, but I admit that despite my status as a parent after infertility, when reading with limited time, I often place greater priority on commenting on the blogs of people who are dealing with other, more difficult, scenarios, such as struggling to become parents or to reconcile themselves with childlessness, and I won’t apologize for that. It just is what it is. I would be very sad if parents were removed from the big blogroll, and hope that you don’t make that choice, although of course I will accept whatever choice you make with nothing but gratitude for the incredible contributions that you have made to all of us over the years.
I have skimmed all of this and have not had time to fully digest it enough to add anything helpful to the conversation. But I just want to send some love and (((HUGS))) your way Mel. I hope you know how much I adore you and everything you have done and continue to do for our ALI Community, including/especially your time and effort with the Blogroll over the years. xoxo
Holy smokes, what divisive conversation we have going here!
I have been to your site many times as a non-blogger, looking for stories to follow. I had no idea there was a parenting section, because I came out here before I was parenting. Once my son was born, I had my short little list of blogs I followed and cheered on, and I was happy. I didn’t return to find more blogs to follow because I had the handful that I could pay attention to. I was blissfully unaware of your parenting section.
Deep down, I wanted to blog myself. I didn’t know how to get started because I certainly wasn’t still in the trenches, but I most certainly didn’t want to be a “mommy blogger” because I’m not the typical mom. IF still affects me quite a bit, even though I have a child. I knew that if I blogged, it would mostly be about and FOR my son, but that IF would be mentioned here and there. I didn’t know where I fit – so I just didn’t blog.
Then PAIL came along. Now – I don’t even identify with the creator of PAIL at all. We have totally different paths to parenthood and I’m not sure that she really does know what it’s like to watch your fertility options dwindle as you try each successive treatment and keep failing miserably at them. She was so fortunate to not need any IF treatments (and I’m thrilled for her – and jealous!) and I needed heaps – so I never felt much of a connection, really, and certainly didn’t view her as the IF advocate that many seem to view her as. Not the pain Olympics here, just saying I don’t identify. But her idea reached out to me. I mean – so we didn’t have the same, or even similar, path to parenthood – but we were both parenting after a difficult journey to parenthood. That is where I felt a connection – and I felt like I could FINALLY blog and fit somewhere. And I’ve LOVED it!
So even though I don’t identify with the creator of PAIL, I am very appreciative of what she created. Her creation, even if it is a copy of what you’ve done (and I can definitely see it as that), got me to start blogging. And I am grateful for that. I’ve also noticed others on her list in a similar situation as myself – new bloggers because they now know where they fit.
This is so tricky. My blog does not touch on my “journey” at all – I started it 8 months after my son was born. There is no history there that would help someone in the trenches. Do I belong on your blogroll? I don’t know.
I’ve read most of the comments, but I admit not all of them. Still, I wanted to weigh in because this is clearly something that affects us all.
I’m hurt by the creation of a separate blogroll, because it scares me. First, because I’m RPL. If the blog rolls do go in different directions, what happens to me? After another miscarriage do I get an extra kick in the pants moving myself back from pregnant to IF?
Secondly, if all of the ‘successes’ move away, where does the extra support come from? Let me try to explain that better. First, I’m guilty of ICLW screening. I don’t click on parenting blogs, or pregnancy blogs. Too many triggers. I just can’t do it right now. That said, I hope someday when (and if)I’m ‘on the other side’ so to speak, I can offer support and comfort even knowing it may not be returned 10 fold, or at all. I’m sure not everyone who moves on continues to be a member of the ALI community, but I like to think those who do are like the really fast people at the marathon who stand around the finish line cheering on the late comers, offering them water and running along side of them because they already won the race, and those of us still running need the extra love and support.
I’m sure there are lots of reasons mommy bloggers need love and support as well, I’m not trying to discount that, but why couldn’t a woman who needed both continue to participate in ALI ICLW/etc and introduce herself in the bigger world of mommy bloggers who can help with issues like sleep schedules and mommy meltdowns for that type of support (that’s said from a place of mostly ignorance, but I have several mommy blogger friends who seem to have these type of blogrolls/groups)?
Finally, I hate that this is causing so many bad feelings for so many people. I’m wishing peace for everyone, including myself, who’s feeling anxious and upset.
Mel – I’m frankly a little confused and feel like I’m not firing on all pistons today…. So my two cents…you do a fabulous job at organizing the community. Whatever works for you will be fine.
<3
Oh, Mel. I am deeply sorry that this has hurt you. You have done so much for me and the IF communtity at large. I am certain that without your energy and brainstorming, I’d still be floudering out in the internet without a place to ground myself. I know it isn’t said enough, but thank you for all that you do.
I still participate in ICLW and still try to follow/support those still in the trenches. I definitely haven’t forgotten my beginnings and do want to help when I can.
And I did join PAIL a few days ago. My thought was that it would be a nice way to gain more readership. My blog has been hit with a new name/address and a baby, which I am feeling through lack of comments and traffic. PAIL is a small group thus far, and I thought it would be manageable. There was no feeling for me of being better than others because I parent; no thought that I no longer want to associate with those still ttc.
I thought of PAIL more like a club on the main campus. Not everyone belongs to every club, as each person has different needs and interests, but they are all still part of the same campus as a whole. People get to pick and choose for themselves in which clubs they want to participate. (For example, I was a member of the Asian American club in high school because that was where my friends went during lunch!) For me, clubs were not exclusive, all could join if they wanted.
I saw PAIL the same way. I considered it just another group to which I could belong (not unlike the multiples group, preemie group, and CP group I am already involved in). Joining one group doesn’t necessarily mean I want to leave the others. A piece of me is a part of all those groups, yet not a single one represents my entire reality.
I am not reading the comments on this post, before I opine (But I am itching to do so.)
I went on PAIL…but I did not really mean to offend or create some alternative universe for myself.
I am happy being on your blogroll (I think I am listed under unexplained infertility). Or I am listed by my old moniker/blog.
I have never felt alienated because I am now mothering. Never.
I never left reading blogs because the authors were pregnant or parenting, and I think that will NEVER EVER be the cause for my quitting reading a blog.
I just thought that it was another listing, and did not really see some big negative coming out of it. Obviously, I did not really think it thaaaat deeply as you have.
I would never quit your blogroll or stop hanging around SQ.
Now can I go read the comments. I am sure they are more persuasive and better-put than mine.
I never meant to create an alternative to you. That’s it. It never ever crossed my mind.
xo
Okay, I just read the comments.
a: Ouch, don’t hit me with that pitchfork…that hurts.
And Mel: I have never ever underestimated the work you have done in the ALI blogosphere, and what you continue to do.
Also, well, the contention that those who joined PAIL was because the normal ALI blogosphere was not serving them….I can’t accept that for myself. I just thought it was a great way to connect. I have signed up for PAIL, but I haven’t signed up for everything that it intends to do. I do ICLW, CDLC and Show and Tell with you, but I can never do Grateful Said – not because, I don’t get awesome comments, but because I get too many awesome comments. Similarly, when I went on PAIL, I really did not consider too deeply if I would be involved or would like to involve in everything that is stated.
I am very sorry for this. I don’t think I ever wanted to offend you. And please don’t generalize about why people went on PAIL.
There are so many activities that are hosted by several bloggers in the blogosphere, and so many people participate. I never figured that Elphie’s activity would be considered colliding.
I feel like I’m totally missing something here. I guess I’m not as involved in the community as I might have thought since I’m not sure where PAIL came from, where it is, or what the heck is going on.
Personally, I’m pregnant, all known indicators say that I’m going to have 2 babies this summer. We only need to fear that itty bitty possibility of the unknown that might take it away from me like it did last time.
When those babies are safely in my arms, I’m going to feel like I’m no longer a member of the ALI community, but that’s ok because I’ll find a mommy community to belong to. My feelings won’t be hurt if I’m removed from ALI blogrolls and if other Miscarriage Mamas are done following me. The subject of my blog is going to change so it’s only logical that my blog categorization changes as well.
Patooy! I did not just jinx myself by claiming I’ll safely make it to parenthood! No jinx, NO JINX!!!
Ok so I don’t really keep up too much with most of the IF blogging anymore but this surprises me. Whatever the intent or what ever happens I just wanted to say Mel that I really appreciate all you’ve done to make a community here. I’m so glad to have come across your blog all those years ago.
I don’t have IF, but my SIL does. 7 years, multiple surgeries, drugs, and treatments, no baby. She doesn’t blog, and to my knowledge, doesn’t read IF blogs either. I read IF blogs to learn, to grow, and to offer her as much support as I possibly can-it’s made me a much better person for what I’ve learned. I found your blog about 2 years ago, and loved it so I kept coming back. I’m sorry this is hurting you, and I hope it can all be worked out in a way that uses more glue than knives.
Wow. Hmm. I saw the PAIL thing gathering momentum, but personaly did not feel the need to join. I too think it is just a duplicate, even though apparently there was just an idea, an invitation, and a massive join-me movement. (BTW, if you ever have the occasion to read Join Me by Danny Wallace, do it, it’s a very funny book. Based on a real person with very peculiar ideas. Danny also wrote Yes Man, which as with Join Me, was an actual idea of his that he carried out.)
I can understand if you would want to take some time off, to clear up your head and heart. But I would be very sorry to have you feel unappreciated or taken for granted or unvalued, because you do mean a lot for a lot of people, even though we do not tell you this enough.
I doubt Pail’s idea was to be divisive, but it ended up being so. I am sorry YOU ended up having your feelings hurt enough to need time off. Know that we will miss you during this time off. And even though you are upset now, please don’t deprive all of us of your writing, come back when you can and share your thoughts again with us.
Thinking of you and wishing you all the best,
Mina
Mel, to me the most important thing I can say here is how deeply, deeply, abidingly grateful I am for the work you do. Even though I think I know how very much work it is, I know in my heart I am underestimating. Thank you.
I hope you will keep your blogroll as it is, though I understand the impulse not to. As a practical matter, I have found it very useful to look at pregnant/parenting blogs in various areas of the blogroll, even (especially?) when not getting pregnant myself. Looking down the list of Endo blogs marked “parenting” and looking at who got their via IVF gave me courage to go forward with it myself (with happy results). Doing the same in the GLBT room gave me a different kind of courage, just as needed.
It’s hard to choose the thing I am most grateful for about your many projects, but if I had to, I’d pick the almost superhuman level of inclusiveness that radiates from them all. As a subfertile lesbian who’s not opposed to the medical orthodoxy (mostly), I am keenly aware of the many communities I don’t fit into. The first time someone directed me to your place, I assumed this was one more nice club I could visit but not join, and even so, I was happy for all the knowledge I could glean. When Smart One Kym sent my blog to the LFCA as a new blog, I couldn’t believe that I was really allowed in (and it took me a while to realize no one was going to come tell me I wasn’t). I’ve spent a lot of my life feeling outside of big groups — not always rejected with hostility, just…not applicable — and belonging to this one means a lot to me. I am having trouble saying this how I want to; I wish I could just hug you and shower you with brownies to show you.
Whatever the intentions or not of the other group’s organizer(s), I am so sorry that you are feeling hurt and under-appreciated. You are wonderful, and the work you do is a gift to the world. For real.
*there*
You can tell I really mean it when I start screwing up my there/their/they’res. Just don’t tell my students.
For me the bottom line is that you are a volunteer. So first and foremost you need to do what works best for you. Secondly, this place is, pardon the expression, your “baby”. Your gut led you to create it and your gut led you to all the decisions that have made this community what it is. Therefore, I trust and support whatever decision you come to on this.
I should have prefaced this by saying that my blog is no longer active, I am now parenting and have decided that I will not be pursuing pregnancy again. However, I still read almost daily and consult the parenting section of the blogroll frequently for tips and information.
This was the first I had heard about PAIL and after looking into it a bit and discovering that you were not consulted in its creation I can say that it is probably not something I would use as a resource. A copy is never as sharp as the original. As stated before though, I trust your decision and what you need to do for yourself.
This is the first time I’ve heard of PAIL, and I don’t plan to join the other blogroll although I’m parenting after TTC. This reminds me, not favorably, of a time when my Fertility Friends buddy group split into two groups, parents and still trying.
I follow a few bloggers whom I feel I know pretty well after 5 or 6 years of blogging. I haven’t posted on my own password-protected blog in 5 months. But I’ve noticed over the same period of time that a lot of IF bloggers who started around my time (2005-2006) aren’t posting very frequently, either. Many of them, but not all, are parents now. It seems that a lot of bloggers run out of steam, time, or both after a few years. I think “parenting after IF” is both too broad and too narrow a subset to create a successful, sustainable blog community.
At some point perhaps I’ll come across a “budgeting and decluttering for women who are happy to be mostly happy for pregnant women now but grimace at early PG announcements on Facebook and $300 white designer high chairs on baby registries due to lingering mild resentment about having to pay for IVF or adoption out of pocket and thus not being able to afford a larger house with better storage space for the toys of multiple-birth offspring” blogroll that would fulfill all my needs. ; ) Until then I would prefer to remain where I am, looking on and commenting in a place that has brought me much support.
I love Amy’s analogy of the marathon runners: it is so apt, and it is so important for those of us still trying/waiting/hoping/praying to receive encouragement from those who have gone before us successfully.
I also think that might also shed some additional light on the points Courtney raises. It seems that the creator of PAIL had a comparatively easy journey to parenthood (I stopped reading her blog a while ago, but my recollection was she got pregnant before she ever even made it into the RE’s office). As Courtney says, it’s not a Pain Olympics, but it might shed some light as to why she doesn’t feel like sticking around to support the rest of the infertility community: her experiences may not motivate her to continue to stand on the sidelines and cheer the rest of us on.
The idea of “parenting AFTER infertility/loss” seems to based upon the mindset that, once you build your family, the scars and the pain and the insight and the compassion you gained from the experience can then be set aside: i.e., you’ve graduated from being “infertile.” I think for a lot of people whose journeys took longer and had harder tolls, it’s not possible to simply leave it all behind: and that’s the magic of your blogroll and community here.
looks like you have a lot of comments to read through… so if you make it to mine… I have a few mixed thoughts. I haven’t blogged in quite some time. Just didn’t really have much to say and didn’t really fit in now that I have a child. I don’t know the author of PAIL, I doubt she meant any harm. I doubt she didn’t experience pain in IF as the previous commenter suggests. I know I experienced a lot of pain and heartache in my journey, but now I am in a different place. I comment on blogs of previous friends I made who are still in the throes of infertility, tried to reach out to others, but it just seemed weird.–I didn’t want them to feel bad if they clicked back to my blog and saw la la land, and I didn’t know if I would do more harm than good by stopping in. I started my blog mainly due to my IF, and I don’t really feel a draw to continue blogging at this time. Others may feel differently and I can see why they are drawn to the PAIL site. I don’t know that I would fit in there either bc I didn’t breastfeed, wasn’t pregnant, etc. Who knows. I think if people want to stay on your blogroll and you are willing to move them around–do it. If you want to remove them, I guess you could do that too–but as you know we are all so different. Some would feel comfortable staying and want to stay, others would naturally move on, or others would want to have their blog stay on as a help to others looking for hope.
Thanks for all you have done and continue to do for the ALI community. One off shoot is probably that you inspired this blogger to create a group where others like herself would be able to find support and friendship. Kudos to you for doing that.
@Tara, I disagree. I think the purpose of PAIL or of any group loosely defined as parenting/pregnant after infertility is to acknowledge that it is VERY different. If you read most of the responses to Elphaba’s query about starting it, none of us feels like we belong anywhere anymore. We’re beyond the pale in the ALI community, yet we feel uncomfortable or even fraudulent with mothers who had more conventional journeys to parenthood.
I think that beyond the issue of Mel’s blogroll and the appropriateness of PAIL, the community needs to have an honest discussion on what it’s like to be “other” once you build your family. I’m coming to the conclusion that IF is a permanent state of mind no matter how many children you have or where you are in your journey.
Mel- I have to say, as a blogger that has been with you since the begininning (though I don’t blog much) this is all crazy. I have been on your blog roll since the beginning. I could be in a number of your catergories, matter of fact I think you have moved me around and I have landed in the “infertility with other issues”. My real diagnosis is RPL (9 pregnancies!) though I am Type 1 diabetic as well.
I joined PAIL not to take anything away from you or your roll. Not in any way at all. It was put out there and I thought “oh another way to find other RPL woman who I could maybe encourage”. I thought nothing more of it in any way, shape or form. I don’t think I need to defend myself but reading through your comments. WOW!!!
I am with several others that are on the PAIL list and love you to death. We thought nothing more. I don’t participate in ICWL or however you write it. I do read and comment each and every day. I read the LFCA every week and try to encourage people as well.
This whole conversation seems a bit crazy. I am pretty computer handicapped as far as blogging, code, etc. goes but I am willing to help with things if I can.
To borrow from the wording of some personal emails and comments on my ‘about’ page that I have received this morning, I’m the “asshole” who “dared” to suggest an ICLW-type event for PAIL.
I never blogged about IF or loss, and I still don’t. I didn’t have the courage, and I still don’t. I didn’t even know this community existed until I was finally pregnant ‘for keeps’. I found ALI blogs and started reading for support after being treated brutally by my only IRL IF friend during my second miscarriage and most recent pregnancy.
I didn’t know about the blogroll organization on this site, or that ICLW was unique to it. Like a commenter above said, I thought it was widespread across the blogosphere. I read this post last night and realizing I had made a faux pas promptly asked to be added to Mel’s blogroll and learned about more about the ins and outs of ICLW.
I stumbled on PAIL. It gave me some courage. What I was hoping for, honestly, was some friends. Some days, reading about where I was 2-3 years ago is too much, just like reading about where I am NOW would have been too much for me then. I was hoping to add a few blogs that reflected my day-to-day reality to my reading. All I wanted (by suggesting a ‘meet and greet’ event), and desperately need, was to meet people in the place that I’m in so that I can begin to heal the place that I was. The women I have found over the last 2 years have been a source of support I can’t begin to quantify. I was only looking speak up a little, be heard a little, and listen to many more voices.
So, for those of you who sent me hurtful, ugly messages, shame on you. There is no reasonable justification, and I didn’t deserve that. I was just looking for a safe place, for where I am now in my journey. Now, more than ever, I feel like I don’t belong.
It’s taken me a while to sort any personal feelings I have about this and see it all for what it is. So here I go, as fair as I possibly can.
The issues surrounding parenting after infertility are real, as is the awkwardness of knowing how to continue to participate in this blogging community while still feeling able to share your own life without hurting anyone or chasing them away. The fact that so many attached themselves to PAIL so readily shows how many women are struggling with these very issues, as do so many comments here. PAIL is fulfilling a need that for too long has been, if not neglected, at least a little taboo to talk about. Okay. Fine.
If I were Mel, no, scratch that.
On Mel’s behalf, however, I find it disappointing and more than a little insulting that so many bloggers, women who have used Mel, all she’s created at Stirrup Queens and her ongoing and exhaustive efforts to keep the support for everyone and talk about anything going, never even thought to check her blog roll for parenting after infertility blogs. Nor did it occur to anyone to say to her, “hey, there’s a huge need not being met, what do you think we can do about that?” I can understand completely how Mel was hurt by the total lack of thought and consideration given to her contributions when she spends so much of her life thinking and considering how to give to this community, and how that hurt began to feel like betrayal as she saw her ideas being used without her knowledge.
I think it sucks that it’s all come to this, and I do hope cooler heads will prevail in a couple days and no hard feelings will linger….except mine for one poster way, way above who used such a nasty, cold tone in one of her phrases that I’ve made a note to never read her blog or regard her comments anywhere.
And perhaps sometime soon we can engage in a larger discussion of why the sentiments that lead to PAIL being formed exist and whether there really is a way to rectify what happens if you finally get your baby with what’s happening to those who haven’t yet or won’t.
It seems clear from this comment thread why so many parenting IFers feel they don’t belong. The judgement is astonishing. The worst are comments about levels of pain being less for some people than others. OMG! The levels that could go to and how unacceptable that is! Can you imagine if we started comparing the pain of a mother losing her child at different stages? The presumptuousness is shocking! And to read that people sent personal attacks to SRB? As someone who relied on this community as a reader but only started a blog after becoming a parent, I felt shy but not pushed away. I honestly didn’t know what it was like to click on a link to a parenting blog since I didn’t blog during my darkest IF days. I was tentative. Now I feel alienated. I wanted to be part of the IF community because life is not all roses, and mommy bloggers–even those who deal with depression and the like–are often not quite as able to relate to the fear and pain that is the shadow of IF, and in my case, other significant loss as well. But to come here with hope and pain and to be told that my pain is not enough? Shame on you. I don’t think the divisiveness is Mel’s fault. Not at all. But it’s there, and PAIL answered it before it created it.
I understand that you are hurt that someone else wants to do what you’ve already done. You have put a lot of work into it, no one denies that… however, the internet is a free place… people can choose where they want to go.. they can add to what exists, or improve upon it. It’s not personal. Just like adding a new blog about infertility might double up on the ideas mentioned in someone else’s blog doesn’t negate the value.
Don’t create drama… we are all better than that.
I’d like to also add how absolutely offended and pissed off I am at the many commenters who dared to start comparing the “ease” of their infertility/TTC journey to anyone else’s.
How dare you all. We are all women, struggling/or having struggled with loss, pain and inability to conceive on the timeline that our bodies should be able to. Alienating others for the comparative ease or hardship is shameful. I’m happy to not expose myself to that.
Wow! The hackles seem to be rising for everyone. Melissa, I consider you my personal hero. You have provided me a place to be when no one else around me understood. You have walked me through the treatments that I have had to date with all your articles, and I could not have done it without you. Thank you!
That being said, I don’t think PAIL was an intentional effort to hurt or divide, I am not part of it, nor do I know anyone that is, but I like to believe that we would all treat each other better than that. I can completely understand why it’s existence would be painful, and I think that I would have reacted in the same way. Just take it a day at at a time, and don’t let it wear you down.
As ffar as you separating the lists…I personally never click away from parenting blogs unless I just don’t “click” with the person. In fact I NEED those parenting blogs on your list. Sometimes it is so easy to become wrapped up in treatments and appointments that the light at the end of the tunnel becomes harder to acknowledge. I need to be reminded sometimes that people make it to the other side, that there is life after infertility whether that is parenting, traveling or any other option. In fact I need that more now than ever as we enter our first IUI cycle.
I am so sorry that you have been hurt, and I hope healing will be easy for you, but after reading these comments, I don’t think it will be. Good luck!
I started my relationship with your blog when I was looking for answers when TTC, and I found ICLW, it was great to be able to find current, up to date posts about struggling with TTC. I participated a few times and added new blogs to my list and at the same time, found comfort. Then I got pregnant and felt like I didn’t belong. I only spent a few months in IF hell. We got pregnant naturally. So I was in limbo. I wasn’t blissfully unaware of issues, like many mommy blogs out there, and I wasn’t sure I had earned a spot on your blogroll or even to be on ICLW. So I stopped participating, I still check the list every month, and read parenting after IF blogs, but I am too afraid of hurting someone who clicks on my page to reply to a comment to participate anymore. PAIL seemed like a place where I felt like I belonged. I joined before the comment leaving post.. I won’t leave PAIL because of it, because I think Elphie’s intentions were pure. I would love to check the blog roll and find parenting blogs here, but every time I do, Most of the time I find out of date, expired or just plain wrong blogs. I guess I should have reported them, but I just hadn’t had the time. I don’t think she’s replacing you, or intending to, just tryng to solve her problem of not feeling like she belonged, and found out that a lot of others feel that way too. I think you need to talk to her, clear the air. I’m sure there’s a much more positive way to resolve this, and everyone can find a place to be, even if they exist in both places. There are thousands of programs, like nablopomo, i heart faces, and tons of blogrolls that at heart all have the same purpose. Not to compete… but to bring readers, and posters together under a common purpose.
I don’t ever see your blog being replaced, you provide such a valuable resource in so many different ways. I don’t see that as the intended purpose either.
I joined the PAIL blogroll.
But I don’t regret it. I feel bad if it hurt someone, it was not the intention. If anything I joined it to avoid hurting people. I remember how hard it was to continue to follow people after pregnancy and then with the focus of their blog shifting to being a mom. That’s why I joined PAIL, because I felt like it was one place where I could celebrate my baby and discuss IF topics.
I am not asking for anyone’s sympathy, but it can be difficult to find someone in that same situation.
To be honest, I did not know there was a blogroll for parenting after IF. I now do and would love to become a part of that as well.
I truly do apologize if someone’s feelings were hurt.
And I can understand not wanting to do double work, but if you take the parenting after IF and loss section off of the blogroll, isn’t that being divisive?
I didn’t want to read all the comments because I don’t want to be upset. I joined PAIL because a) I didn’t even know about a parenting after IF room but also because I still feel every day that I am an infertile blogger but now I am an infertile blogger who is pregnant. I fortunately have never had awful anon comments but so many people have and literally have stopped blogging and moved away because they didn’t want to upset anyone. And I find that to be the worst thing of all. They worked their arses off to get pregnant and a few super super bitter people have taken that away from them. PAIL reminds people of where we came from. Half of my blog posts are still about infertility. I am trying to advocate IF at home in Oz but it is hard. I could never have done what you did and still do for IF. I didn’t even see it as being different from the ALI it was just allowing the ALI community somewhere to go once they did fall pregnant rather than just leaving it. I still scour the ALI blogroll and add new people because I am all about supporting those in the trenches (this is seriously the most wonkiest worded comment ever).
Overall I don’t think anyone ever had the intention of leaving ALI but rather cementing their place and still feeling they had a role in ALI rather than not being able to blog anymore because they were pregnant.
Can’t we all live together? I hope so. Because I would have been lost alone and stranded without my infertile island community.
Everyone remember why we were here in the first place!
It makes me so sad that this is even a discussion, but I speak as a person who has sunbeams shooting out of my a*& due to my amazing good luck at being able to have the family that I do.
When I was lost, alone, and frustrated, I found this community and the support it gave me was more amazing than anything I have in “real” life. I already had one child, so I felt like something of an imposter, but nobody ever made me feel like I didn’t belong or that I was asking too much.
In addition, the women I have met and follow through these blogrolls are daily inspirations to me. I admire them so much and, I don’t want to make them sound like this is their only role because they do so much more, but they help me to really appreciate what I have been lucky enough to have – even though it was so hard to achieve.
It’s unfortunate that this is such a volatile and emotional subject; I never once begrudged anyone a pregnancy or child, but perhaps that is because I had one before I even found out I had medical issues. There is so much divisiveness that already exists in our world and we all need each other. I really hope that we can find a way to all support each other. If you see that my blog talks about my children and that makes you uncomfortable, then please don’t feel like you need to stop by. But if you want encouragement or support from someone who has been through so many of these experiences, I’m here. I’m an MTHFR with repeat pregnancy losses. I will always feel that pain even through my happiness and good fortune. I will never lose sight of the amazing women who were with me every step of the way, and I only hope others will let me support them as well.
Whoa I read the comments. Stupid stupid Chon.
For anyone that thinks that this was an effort to undermine Mel you are so very mistaken. As some of the other commenter’s suggested this was an idea that sprung out of internal discussion about where we fit it once we get a BFP or start parenting.
Clearly from number of enthusiastic responses PAIL was born out the idea that we didn’t know where we belonged any more. It literally happened on one day.
It wasn’t about sabotaging one woman’s, quite frankly brilliant efforts in creating a society for women struggling with infertility and loss. It was, for me about remaining in that society to continue helping people struggling and being able to write freely of pregnancy and parenting without alienating others. It wasn’t about an exclusive clique – I am already in that exclusive clique the one that has 1 in 6 sufferers called IF and the other one that is 1 in 4 called miscarriage.
To start slinging mud at each other is as one person said much more divisive that simply creating a button that says “hey I am infertile but I am a mum / pregnant” because for me that is what PAIL is. What hurts me is when I have supported people through their journey and when they get pregnant they leave simply because they don’t know how to blog any more without hurting others. Isn’t that sad?
Also I am part of cyclesista and I was going to join faces of loss / faces of hope which are also two other blogrolls that exist (as far as I am aware) outside the original ALI blogroll.
No one ever intended for PAIL to offend, hurt or alienate. I was simply excited about connecting with other pregnant infertility sufferers that had graduated to the other side and still felt that I had a place in this amazing community.
Now I feel like I am supposed to choose between two political parties with cronies campaigning against one another. When all I want is a place to belong.
Oh, Mel. I’m so sorry that this has happened, when I know that the one thing you stand for above all others is inclusiveness. There is good discussion here, sure, but the fact that it has also devolved into the Pain Olympics is counterproductive and divisive.
BTW, I noticed your play on words with “cesession” vs “secession.” As in “stop!” As in “cess” and as in “tax.”
And so I ask, what is a reasonable tax for an online community to pay? I guess it’s hard to tax something that’s been freely given.
I am so late to the party that I am mortified , and so sad that your heart is hurtimg because of this. I had never heard of PAIL until 15 minutes Ago when I read another blog, followed it over and then the tears started.
I am parenting after IF..I want to stay on the blogroll the same way I always have. I am 42 years old and while not actively ttc again, hope springs eternal…and I refuse to be moved. I started here on the internet right around the time you did, you found me and inspired me, supported me and motivated me. I will do NOTHING less for you.
Plus we don’t need seperate places, that’s our problem as a country, as a people, as a gender sometimes….we don’t need seperate rooms we need to stand in the same place with one another and help each other.
Infertility is so exclusive just by its very nature…it makes us stand outside . Why in the world would we choose to do that to each other after all of us have been (and are currently ) going through???
I love you Mel and support you and your vision in this.
I must say I’m kind of disappointed by the comments on here. I can clearly see both sides of this issue. Mel has every right to feel the way she does. This community is her baby and she has done amazing things for it. But I know that Elphaba meant no harm. She would never intentionally hurt Mel or make anyone feel like they could not be part of the community. She is just trying to find a way to feel like she (and others of course) can belong again and I understand that.
But I can’t believe some of the hurtful comments I’ve read on here. Comments about how she didn’t really go through infertility and based on the fact that she never had to use IF meds she doesn’t understand what this community is really about. It makes me sad that we have resorted to belittling another’s struggles.
I’ve worked on and debated typing this up all day. But I feel it needs to be said. I’m sorry if I offend you, I’m simply sharing my thoughts and opinions.
I’m going to admit, I was hurt too by the creation of the PAIL blogroll. I follow many of the ladies that have joined. I’ve read their blogs and followed along on twitter with them before they ever conceived their babies. I read through their pregnancies. I read through their birth stories. I’ve read through their struggles and joys parenting. It was a HUGE slap in the face to me to read about a new blog roll and new community building activities that I wouldn’t be able to take part in because I’m not in the PAIL category. Its like in real life… when your friends who know or don’t know about your infertility all have babies and plan play dates with each other and don’t bother to invite you since “you don’t have any kids”. I’m just not invited to the party anymore because I’m different soley because I don’t have children.
I too feel out of place in the ALI blogosphere. I’m at a stalemate. I’m not actively pursuing treatments or adoption, nor have we decided to live childfree. I don’t feel like I really fit in anywhere, but I keep blogging for me. I keep blogging because I know one day I’ll look back and be thankful I have my thoughts from in the moment. I’m part of this community for just that… to be part of a community of like minded people, no matter what stage they’re at in this journey. I don’t unfollow once you’ve reached a certain milestone.
I’ve never been part of the ‘in crowd’. I don’t know why this should be any different. I just wish the last few weeks people could’ve been more thoughtful with, more or better communication. Seeing as I read along with PAIL starting, it wasn’t very well thought through it seemed very spur of the moment.
No one whose poured so much of their soul into building up of community should feel like you do right now, Mel. I thank you for all that you do and wish you a speedy return!
Holy crap, am I reading comments from yet another news article about IVF?
All levity aside, I’m bummed that this is going on, and I hope that some kind of solution will come out of this situation.
You know what bothers me the most? All the people who have come here saying they joined PAIL and it isn’t exclusive and why can’t we all get along yet the comments over on Elphaba’s blog are insinuating that Mel is creating drama and “they (meaning people here) take things too seriously.” So people are saying one thing here and then slinging mud over there. Praising Elphaba for showing restraint and not going off over here. That’s not ok.
I’ve thought about this a lot. I’m still struggling with how to verbalize how I feel about it. Mel gave me a place to not feel like a freak about my infertility. Being a lesbian didn’t matter, I knew I was accepted here. This site is always the first one I give out when a friend confides in me about battling infertility. Not Resolve. HERE. And my issue is – Mel heads this community, but it’s OUR community and if we want to make it better it’s just as much our responsibility to cultivate it with her as it is hers. And I feel like people seemed to feel “excluded” and basically took their football and went home so to speak. Left and created their own space instead of improving the existing one. And never paused to consider how it might hurt Mel or the community by doing so.
Mel, keep doing what you’re doing. I will gladly participate in discussions in ways to make this place home for as many as want to be home here. You are the torch bearer, and I will follow you.
I have to agree with k. I wish this didn’t upset me as much as it did, and I’ve tried to tell myself it’s just silly drama, but this has broken my heart and ended my desire to blog openly in this community, at least for now.
The hurtful comments on both sides are cruel and unnecessary. I’ve tried to see this from both sides, but to hear that because I’m hurt at being excluded, I’m just a hormonal drama queen is too much. To the woman who posted that, I suspect that you were once in the midst of medicated hormonal fuelled grief as well, and if you weren’t you know someone who was.
Let’s face it, if you’re pregnant or parenting post IF, you win (at least on some level, I’m not trying to discount sif or the different challenges of adoption etc). Why then, turn around and discount what are true feelings of exclusion, intended or not, fear of never overcoming IF, longing for what you have as just ravings of bitchy women? Regardless of where you stand on the blog roll issue, you once stood where many of us still stand, I would have expected more.
It seems to me as if the comments on this post are saying one thing from all sides: I don’t want to be excluded. Parenting after IF people don’t want to be excluded from getting support from peers, but so many others on the ALI spectrum don’t want to be excluded either: what’s been so disturbing is the number of people who have said they just don’t feel like the fit in somewhere, and this has made them feel worse.
Maybe a more productive discussion to have is: how can we as a group, support each other as peers (TTC, testing, cycling, pregnant, going through loss, living childless/childfree after IF/loss) but also as members of the same overall organization so there is less feeling of exclusion? What can be done within the existing framework, built so incredibly through Mel’s hard work, to resolve some of the issues here?
Please please don’t cease the blogroll! I don’t want to join PAIL and if you cease the Parenting room of your blog roll I will sort of disappear and I really will feel like I don’t belong – something I have never felt since finding this community.
I personally don’t understand the need for the new PAIL roll, the argument about not wanting IF ers to stumble across their blogs during ICLW because if you simply put ‘ parenting’ ad one of the three wterms to describe your blog then people know not to click across unless they want to read about parenting.
Mel, I understand why you feel like you are pouting in hours of work for no reason, butt the fact is, it’s not for no reason. There are still plenty of people who want to stay on your blogroll. To be honest, I’d feel angry if I lost my space on yore blog roll just because another blogroll was started.
Please excuse typos, commenting from my phone!
I keep coming back here wanting to leave a comment. So here I am. Again. I will press “submit” today.
I guess I just don’t understand. I don’t understand where the hateful and malicious comments are coming from. I can clearly see both sides. I do not think that Elphaba is being malicious or intentionally hurtful, and I see that people feel a need to have a ‘safe’ space where they can talk about the challenges of parenting after IF without having to censor themselves. I have struggled with that same need for a number of years now, though it’s really come to the forefront as we deal with failed treatments again for #2.
But I also see how hurtful it is for you, Mel, who has spent the past 6 working your ass off on projects that are inclusive of ALL people in this community.
I don’t really know how to fix it, either. I am sad and hurt that there is so much pain and emotion in this, and I wish it was different.
What I love most about you, Mel, is your inclusivity. This site is truly a safe place to come whether you’re a parent after adoption, infertility, are trying to get pregnant, are worried that you are infertile, or even if you have no issues with IF but someone you know is struggling with issues. You treat everyone here with love and respect, and you inspire me daily to be the same way. And I think if there was no space for me here, in this community, my blogging days would be over.
Love you, sweetie. I’m so sorry this has brought you so much hurt.
xoxo
I joined the PAIL list.
I did so becuase I’ve been having an extremely difficult time posting, during this pregnancy. But there have been SO many things I’ve wanted to write about. I literally have dozens of posts in the ‘draft’ stage becasue I couldn’t hit the publish button for fear of alienating my friends (yes, I consider all my readers my friends) who are still in the trenches.
And then, after what I watched Mo go through, with the tragic loss of Nadav, I have been almost paralyzed in terms of posting.
The other thing is that I didn’t realized there WAS ALREADY a place for parenting/pregnancy after IF. I think it was MO who said that when she joined up she was entrenched in the TTC and Loss sections. That was my story too. Is my story.
I honestly thought, wow, Elphie is doing a great thing here, in creating an off-shoot of Mel’s AMAZING work. That is really great for those of us that are in this situation.
I’m sorry Mel, for the hurt. I’m sorry Elphie that you are dealing with all of this too. I don’t think you (Elphie) meant anything less than caring and consideration for those of us that are like you — either pregnant after IF or currently parenting.
Someone else said (I think it was Esperazna or Jjirrafe) that it’s hard to talk about the challenges of a pregnancy, or a newborn, with someone who is still battling IF. I remember at times thinking to myself (after reading someone’s ‘complaint’ about pregnancy) I would GLADLY trade places with you … and now, here I am. 26 weeks pregnant and I am SCARED SHITTLESS to talk about what is going on with me … because I don’t want to hurt anyone else.
Thank you Mel for what you do. Again, I’m sorry this has caused so much pain.
MJ
@jjiraffe: Bingo! You’ve nailed it with this observation: “It seems to me as if the comments on this post are saying one thing from all sides: I don’t want to be excluded. Parenting after IF people don’t want to be excluded from getting support from peers, but so many others on the ALI spectrum don’t want to be excluded either: what’s been so disturbing is the number of people who have said they just don’t feel like the fit in somewhere, and this has made them feel worse.”
I’m one of “the others on the ALI spectrum” and have observed with fascination this discussion. It is a lesson in the deep wounds, the painful alientation caused by infertility. I’ve taken and slung my own barbs in the past and it hasn’t been fun. A few of us have carved out a small niche in the blogosphere for those who don’t parent after infertility as a way to shine a light on another path, but I still come back here from time to time since it’s where it all began for me.
Regardless of where we are on the ALI spectrum, our recovery is a non-linear process. Some of us come to terms faster than others. As one of the older members of this community, I can truly say that it takes much hard work to reconcile powerful emotions, loss and grief. Ultimately peace and acceptance comes from within — but it sure helps speed the process when we can give each other space and be nice to each other. So, if there’s one thing this entire discussion has reminded me it’s this: “be nice — and bring enough cupcakes for everyone.”
I am at a loss…I really don’t know what to say. I only recently joined the ALI blogroll as I wasn’t sure I wanted to belong after having my baby via IVF. However, Mel says, “if you think you might belong here, you probably do.” So I submitted my blog, after changing the title and not the URL. I have only been blogging for a year and a half so this is all so new to me. When Elphie opted for the PAIL blogroll, I jumped on it. Mostly because Elphie and I went through our pregnancies together. And the majority of the discussion was with women who recently gave birth.
I did not join to hurt anyone, but to get my blog out there in another place to connect more with the community. I will admit it was nice to see an increase in readership and comments. I have never participated in ILCW because I’m simply not disciplined enough. I like Mrs D commented above found my reading list from other blogs and comments. I used Mel’s list to find the first few after seeing a link on someone’s blog.
I’m happy to stay on both lists, but those of you running these lists and managing all of them have to make that decision. I may have my baby, but in a few months we’ll be starting treatment again with hope for more children. So I’ll be PAIL and TTC and IF all in the same boat. I really have no idea where I fit in. I still blog about IF and treatments and what it took to get my baby, and what it’s going to take to get more babies, if we’re lucky again.
I don’t doubt what Mel does is phenomenal. I’ve seen her list and it is extremely intimidating. For the first time this year I participated in the Creme de la Creme, however because I submitted late, my post hasn’t been added to the list yet. I can’t even imagine what it takes for Mel to maintain the blog roll and do stuff like ILCW and Creme de la Creme, and have a life outside of all of this.
I joined both lists because I thought it would help get my story out there. If I had known it was against the rules to participate in 2 blogrolls, I would never have joined. I may be a rebel without a clue, but I don’t want to intentionally hurt anyone in the process.
Mel I’m sorry your feelings were hurt and you felt your toes were stepped on. I’m sure Elphie was inspired by you and wanted to do something to give back to the community she had become a part of.
I hope this all works out and I’m sorry I’m a day late and a dollar short with my comment, but I’m glad I took the time to read through all of the comments.
Wow…I don’t know that I have anything to say that hasn’t already been said yet don’t want to remain silent. I’m a SMC so my “infertility” was circumstantial more than biological tho I do identify with many on the IF journey I would never dream of saying I know what it’s like. I conceived with my 1st IUI then miscarried in my 8th week. My RE quickly identified PCOS & low progesterone & treated immediately, my 2nd IUI resulted in my daughter…relatively easy, right? I don’t think so because my miscarriage nearly broke me & I can’t help but wonder what might have been if I’d been trying naturally with a partner…I wouldn’t have been seeing an RE, due to low progesterone & PCOS I could have experience multiple losses instead of only 1…my what ifs are many people’s reality…what’s the point of all my rambling? I’ve never felt like I fit in anywhere in the blog community …except on Mel’s blogroll. There are so many rooms & it is so inclusive I feel there is a place for me. I know mine is a story that would make some women want to punch me but it’s also a story that could be helpful or inspirational…so I’m not sure if I belong on the PAIL blogroll but I sure as shit know I belong on Mel’s.
And Mel, you rock & I’m sorry you’ve been hurt by this
Mel, I’d never have joined if I thought it would be hurtful to you – I’m so sorry for that. It did occur to me that it was a sort of duplication of the Parenting section of your blogroll, but I still joined – it seemed to me that it would somehow be less painful, now approaching my third trimester after four early miscarriages, if I had to ask to be removed from PAIL than it would be to ask to go to Pregnancy & Parenting on your list and then back to Loss if the worst should happen. I’m torn about where I’ll belong on yours if/when I get my take-home baby…I will be parenting, but I will always be an RPL girl at heart. So is it better to leave my blog in the loss room, so women with similar experiences might find me there, or to move to Parenting so it wouldn’t sting so much if they land at my blog and see that I’m “on the other side”? (rhetorical question – unless you know the answer.)
I’m sure nobody wanted to be exclusionary or divisive, even if that’s what’s happened. Before I got pregnant and started to believe it might actually stick, it felt like everyone was parenting. In my trenches, I felt excluded because we could get pregnant without assistance, just couldn’t seem to stay that way, so I didn’t quite think I fit into the infertile/treatment group. Like many others have said…once you are pregnant, it’s terrifying to post in a way that shows you’re enjoying it, yet equally terrifying to dare to admit to being terrified or uncomfortable in any way, too. I imagine parenting will be the same way…. but regardless of what happens, I would never want to walk away from the community you’ve pulled together here.
I’m so sorry your feelings were hurt. I have been visiting for ICLW for about a year, participating two or three times. I always thought it was an AMAZING idea, a great way to connect with even more infertiles going through the same thing, etc. Maybe it’s because I didn’t dig deep enough, but I am being 100% honest here- I didn’t know there was a blogroll list here! I only knew of ICLW, which I had found through other blogs I had followed, which were participating. Maybe Scrambled Eggs didn’t know either. It could have been an “honest mistake” type thing. I am only guessing at this so I could be wrong. I also found PAIL through another blogger who I follow/follows me, thanks to ICLW we had connected. So it’s like it’s come full circle.
Had I known of a blogroll here, I would have joined while TTC’ing #1, during pregnancy, and now while I have my son. And like a few other commentors, I will be TTC’ing #2 shortly, and still need that support for TTC’ing too.
I can only speak for myself here, I would only be guessing about the creator for PAIL on why she created it, but I joined because I saw it as another way to connect with people just like me. BUT, and this is important, I am more than just one version of ME. I am still infertile, I am still dealing with the scars of infertility even though my son is here, but yet I’m a mom after infertility. I joined not to exclude ANYONE, but rather to connect to more people. Not to make anyone feel like they are segregated. If there was an infertility button/sticker I could put on my blog, I would! Probably larger LOL! Because that is just as much a part of me as being a mom.
I can see why you would be upset, and like I said, maybe she honestly didn’t know. I can see why you don’t want to do “double the work” also…. maybe things can be worked out between you two, I hope so. Because through BOTH of your efforts, I have found new blogs and readers, and sharing info and support is what we all really need, at every stage.
Sam xoxo
OOPS! I said maybe Scrambled Eggs, and I meant Runny Yolk, too many tabs open on my comp and I wasn’t paying attention! They sound the same so I can see why I messed that one up lol.
As far as I can see, I’ll be wanting to stick with you Mel. I lost my twins after IF and half a pregnancy and if the PAIL blogroll were around and I’d joined it while pregnant, I would be having to remove myself. That would hurt. It is better to be a part of something bigger than PAIL, because we never know where we’ll end up.
I wish to remain on your blogroll and thank you for all your work bringing people together.
I hate to think of mel hurting. But I am all for keeping these blogs together. Maybe in a separate way so you can find new people who are going through what you are going through. But isn’t what unites us so much more than what divides us? I hope some positivity can come from this discussion.
Coincidentally, I didn’t know what PAIL was (I guess because I am not pregnant?) But I saw it listed on a blog friend’s blog and it made me feel more left out and divided and lonely and sad than ever having seen her post a post about her baby. It just doesn’t feel right. The purpose was to support and protect but it just leaves me feeling yucky inside and left out.
Totally late to the conversation and not sure that I have anything new to add. Mostly I wanted to say that this is a unique and special place for me – your blog. And I really do think of it as a hub and a touchstone. I’m parenting after IF and feel humbled to be able to do so. But I also feel strong and deep connections to this community on my own behalf, on behalf of my friends who have done domestic open adoptions, are in the midst of international adoptions, have suffered losses, and those who are in the middle of infertility treatments as we speak. And those are just my real life friends. This doesn’t account for the friends and connections that I’ve made since starting to come here and joining this community 5 years ago – in a way that supported me beyond measure.
For me, I was diagnosed with a not-often diagnosed (even rare) form of infertility…a form of a balanced translocation. When I was in the pits of hell, I had NO idea what it was and through your blog found more bloggers that had the same or similar diagnosis. I personally liked reading blogs of these same women that crossed over from the trenches to parenting via adoption, DE, DEmb, DS, PGD of own embryos, etc. OR childfree. I learned alot from these women so to simply delete these women’s experiences off the blog roll would be a total devastation to someone like me who eventually made an INFORMED decision and went forward with Donor Egg rather than PGD of own embryos. Please do not delete ANY blogs. Rather, request that bloggers CLEARLY write in their blog titles (or revise them) that their blog is now a blog after infertility. As always, thanks SOOO much for your dedication to keeping the BlogRoll…no decision is easy…wishing you peace as you make the decision.
Dear k,
You would not find my comments and mudslinging on Mel in Elphie’s blog. It would not even cross my mind. But please don’t point fingers as culprits at those who did.
My reason may not appeal to you all, but I am here for companionship, and I will never quit Mel’s space.
Please do not generalize.
ooops…culprits as in those who joined PAIL.
St. Elsewhere – you misinterpreted what I said. When I visited PAIL there were all these posts about how Mel was creating drama and such, but yet everyone here is asking can’t we all get along. That’s what I am saying is not ok. I’m not saying it’s the SAME PEOPLE, but it’s the same COMMUNITY of people.
I posted most of this comment in the comments on Mel’s new post yesterday, and I think this much is clear. We are all hurting. All of us. It’s a really awful feeling – something I think we can all agree on.
In light of the comments here at SQ and elsewhere in the ALI community in the last few days, there is another very clear and important issue that this discussion has brought out. And it’s this:
We need to take a long, hard look at how it is we talk to, around, and about each other.
There are obviously strong opinions and emotions here – of course there are. But I beg you, please ask yourself going forward, am I helping or am I hurting us? That being said, I’m just one person crying uncle.
The one thing that confuses me about the PAIL blogroll and the idea of it not being completely separate from the main list and ICLW is the question of how it insulates anyone from concern about whether they post pregnancy/parenting topics, because anyone that is still doing things like ICLW in addition to PAIL is still having readers still in the trenches of IF and thus still looks at the question of what to post. If that made any sense…I need to go to bed!
Mel, I love you and I love this community. I have been a wretched community member in the past few years but it is no secret that without you (yes, YOU specifically), and the TOOTPU gang, and the Braces Bunch, and everything/everyone else in the IF blogging community, I would have never, ever made it through the dark, horrible years of ttc #2. That is no joke.
Since I’m not on facebook often, and since I am not on twitter at all, and since bloglines went tits up (I’m really dating myself with the reference to bloglines, I imagine), I’ve become mostly non-existent in the community that practically saved my life. For that, I am sorry. I owe my sisters and my friends more than that.
But I’m not here to wail and gnash my teeth about my own guilt. I’m here to say that I love you, I love this blog, I love this blogroll, and I love the community that you created. I don’t know jack shit about this PAIL stuff, but I now know enough (after reading through this post and a couple of the Salon blogs) to know that I am a perfect example of someone who would have bounced around on and off the PAIL blogroll… already had 1 child that was magically conceived after unsuccessful clomid cycles and an unproductive trip to the RE, then had a magically conceived 2nd child that I lost, then did 4 unsuccessful IUIs, then did 1 successful IVF that ended in a miscarriage, then did 2 more IVFs, the last of which resulted in a live baby. So, by my count, if I had joined PAIL when I was pregnant and then left when I miscarried, that’s…. um…. it’s too late at night right now to do the math on how many comings and goings that represents, but suffice it to say that I’m not a fan of that approach.
Regardless of whether the approach would work for others or not, it doesn’t matter. I don’t even need to know the entire backstory of what’s going on. I love you too much and have loved you for too long to do anything other than blindly and fiercely support you. Therefore, if your feelings are hurt, then I am mad. ‘Nuff said.
I am sure this has been said a million times. . . .here I am out of the woodwork to say it again.
One stop shopping! I would ask you to please continue to include all subjects in your blogroll. While I don’t blog or read blogs much anymore, I am not shy about talking about my journey and I host an in-real-life support group. I find myself sending people to your blog all the time. “You have five kids and want just one more and you are 42? Well, not sure anyone can relate in our support group but I am sure there will be someone in a similar situation at The Stirrup Queens blogroll.”
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