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	<title>Comments on: Should Insurance Companies Fund Fertility Treatments?</title>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-58366</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 13:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-58366</guid>
		<description>To those who say that &quot;it&#039;s our fault,&quot; and all that garbage, how would you feel if the shoe was on your foot? Oh yes...no one &#039;DIES&#039; from it, as it was cruelly stated in the article. Well, I have uterine fibroids. My insurance won&#039;t cover the cost of them being treated because it&#039;s &quot;non-essential.&quot; Non-essential? How would they like it if they hurt so bad every month they wanted to die?  Oh, but they&#039;ll cover viagra. 

Yes, I would love to have a child. My husband and I would make great parents. We are going to look into options and see what can be done. (My fibroids can cause infertility). 

I guarantee that if the shoe was on the other foot, we&#039;d all be hearing the opposition whining about how their insurance doesn&#039;t cover them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To those who say that &#8220;it&#8217;s our fault,&#8221; and all that garbage, how would you feel if the shoe was on your foot? Oh yes&#8230;no one &#8216;DIES&#8217; from it, as it was cruelly stated in the article. Well, I have uterine fibroids. My insurance won&#8217;t cover the cost of them being treated because it&#8217;s &#8220;non-essential.&#8221; Non-essential? How would they like it if they hurt so bad every month they wanted to die?  Oh, but they&#8217;ll cover viagra. </p>
<p>Yes, I would love to have a child. My husband and I would make great parents. We are going to look into options and see what can be done. (My fibroids can cause infertility). </p>
<p>I guarantee that if the shoe was on the other foot, we&#8217;d all be hearing the opposition whining about how their insurance doesn&#8217;t cover them.</p>
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		<title>By: nonlineargirl</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-56089</link>
		<dc:creator>nonlineargirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 02:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-56089</guid>
		<description>From what I have read about fertility clinics being willing to or even pushing for transferring multiple eggs as a way to ensure higher &quot;success&quot; rates (and then use that data as marketing to get more clients use their clinic instead of some other) I am not convinced that coverage for IVF would reduce the occurrence of multiples. As someone who has gone through multiple rounds of IVF and who works in health policy I am not sure whether it is a good policy idea. I just can&#039;t separate my emotions from the equation. I do think that it might be worthwhile if insurance coverage was paired with a limit on how many eggs could be transferred at once. (and I say this as someone with twins - I would not give them back, but still.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I have read about fertility clinics being willing to or even pushing for transferring multiple eggs as a way to ensure higher &#8220;success&#8221; rates (and then use that data as marketing to get more clients use their clinic instead of some other) I am not convinced that coverage for IVF would reduce the occurrence of multiples. As someone who has gone through multiple rounds of IVF and who works in health policy I am not sure whether it is a good policy idea. I just can&#8217;t separate my emotions from the equation. I do think that it might be worthwhile if insurance coverage was paired with a limit on how many eggs could be transferred at once. (and I say this as someone with twins &#8211; I would not give them back, but still.)</p>
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		<title>By: Battynurse</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-56054</link>
		<dc:creator>Battynurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 05:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-56054</guid>
		<description>Very well stated. 
It is difficult when you are having to pay out of pocket for everything.  It also sucks when you have to make decisions on family building based on the number in your checking/savings account.  There will still always be people who say that treatment shouldn&#039;t be covered just as I&#039;m sure there will always be people who say gastric bypass shouldn&#039;t be covered because it&#039;s my own fault I got here.  As far as other people&#039;s comments? Those just piss me off.  Until you&#039;ve walked in someone&#039;s shoes, statements like the ones you listed are just cold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well stated.<br />
It is difficult when you are having to pay out of pocket for everything.  It also sucks when you have to make decisions on family building based on the number in your checking/savings account.  There will still always be people who say that treatment shouldn&#8217;t be covered just as I&#8217;m sure there will always be people who say gastric bypass shouldn&#8217;t be covered because it&#8217;s my own fault I got here.  As far as other people&#8217;s comments? Those just piss me off.  Until you&#8217;ve walked in someone&#8217;s shoes, statements like the ones you listed are just cold.</p>
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		<title>By: mrs spock</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55839</link>
		<dc:creator>mrs spock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55839</guid>
		<description>I work for one of the largest insurers in the US. Most people do not buy and choose their own insurance- it is not so much a free market per se. Employers choose the benefit packages, and with the recent economic downturn, they are choosing more scanty packages. A free market also means that you have the option to choose something or not freely, and it is available to everyone who can pay. Traditional insurance is NOT available to everyone. You can and will be turned away if you are deemed too great a risk. Ask my sister. She spent one night in the psych ward at 18 and has been denied insurance ever since. The only reason I, with my heavy medical use and multiple physical problems, can maintain my insurance, is because the law requires it. Should Mr S and I both lose our jobs and the ability to pay for the premiums under COBRA, I will be SOL in perpetuity.

I cannot see traditional insurance offering infertility riders. In order to have a great enough risk pool, people with normal fertility will have to be scared in large enough numbers to purchase that coverage, thereby making the cost affordable to those who need it.

In my own situation, my insurance, back by New York law, covered everything up to injectable/IUIs. The best, most medically sound choice for us, should these Femara cycles fail, would be IVF with a single embryo. IVF is not covered. And, yes, I am tempted to risk multiples on a $55 cycle instead of a $15000 cycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work for one of the largest insurers in the US. Most people do not buy and choose their own insurance- it is not so much a free market per se. Employers choose the benefit packages, and with the recent economic downturn, they are choosing more scanty packages. A free market also means that you have the option to choose something or not freely, and it is available to everyone who can pay. Traditional insurance is NOT available to everyone. You can and will be turned away if you are deemed too great a risk. Ask my sister. She spent one night in the psych ward at 18 and has been denied insurance ever since. The only reason I, with my heavy medical use and multiple physical problems, can maintain my insurance, is because the law requires it. Should Mr S and I both lose our jobs and the ability to pay for the premiums under COBRA, I will be SOL in perpetuity.</p>
<p>I cannot see traditional insurance offering infertility riders. In order to have a great enough risk pool, people with normal fertility will have to be scared in large enough numbers to purchase that coverage, thereby making the cost affordable to those who need it.</p>
<p>In my own situation, my insurance, back by New York law, covered everything up to injectable/IUIs. The best, most medically sound choice for us, should these Femara cycles fail, would be IVF with a single embryo. IVF is not covered. And, yes, I am tempted to risk multiples on a $55 cycle instead of a $15000 cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: wifey</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55734</link>
		<dc:creator>wifey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55734</guid>
		<description>To all who care about this issue, I urge you to visit the RESOLVE website and use their form to write to your legislators.

The issue of whether or not infertility treatments should be covered by insurance is something I feel deeply about. The fact is that I have a medical condition, and do not have access to the treatment my doctor thinks will resolve my condition. My mother - whom I love dearly - is obese. Her insurance company is paying for her to have a lap band surgery, and for all of the pre-anesthetic testing required. I am glad that she can access a treatment for her condition, but it burns me up that she has coverage for this - for a condition that her lifestyle did indeed cause - and so many infertiles are denied coverage. It just plain sucks.
From an economic point of view: my husband and I - and I&#039;m sure many other infertile couples - are forced to scrimp and save every penny so that someday we may afford treatment. Those are dollars that will no longer be boosting the local economy: dinners out are on hold, as are purchasing a new car, hiring contractors to repair/remodel our home, visits to local museums and other cultural events, etc. We are no longer donating to charities or taking vacations. We are, in short spending less, which means less in sales tax revenue for our city and state. We are willing to make these sacrifices if we must, but multiplied across the many infertile couples who must do the same to afford treatment, the impact on the economy is huge. Everyone suffers when infertiles are discriminated against.

Just my two cents :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To all who care about this issue, I urge you to visit the RESOLVE website and use their form to write to your legislators.</p>
<p>The issue of whether or not infertility treatments should be covered by insurance is something I feel deeply about. The fact is that I have a medical condition, and do not have access to the treatment my doctor thinks will resolve my condition. My mother &#8211; whom I love dearly &#8211; is obese. Her insurance company is paying for her to have a lap band surgery, and for all of the pre-anesthetic testing required. I am glad that she can access a treatment for her condition, but it burns me up that she has coverage for this &#8211; for a condition that her lifestyle did indeed cause &#8211; and so many infertiles are denied coverage. It just plain sucks.<br />
From an economic point of view: my husband and I &#8211; and I&#8217;m sure many other infertile couples &#8211; are forced to scrimp and save every penny so that someday we may afford treatment. Those are dollars that will no longer be boosting the local economy: dinners out are on hold, as are purchasing a new car, hiring contractors to repair/remodel our home, visits to local museums and other cultural events, etc. We are no longer donating to charities or taking vacations. We are, in short spending less, which means less in sales tax revenue for our city and state. We are willing to make these sacrifices if we must, but multiplied across the many infertile couples who must do the same to afford treatment, the impact on the economy is huge. Everyone suffers when infertiles are discriminated against.</p>
<p>Just my two cents <img src='http://www.stirrup-queens.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55715</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55715</guid>
		<description>Pardon...meant to type &quot;Thanks for sending out...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pardon&#8230;meant to type &#8220;Thanks for sending out&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55714</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55714</guid>
		<description>Brilliant.  Thanks so sending out calm, rational thought about this topic.  It is so needed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant.  Thanks so sending out calm, rational thought about this topic.  It is so needed!</p>
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		<title>By: Guera!</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55709</link>
		<dc:creator>Guera!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55709</guid>
		<description>Your post and the comments that follow were all very interesting.   Working in the insurance industry (but not for an insurance company!) I see all the time where  certain treatments are not covered until other treatments and methods are tried first.  This often results in expense , time off work, loss of productivity and use of valuable resources  only to circle back to the original recommended treatment. It burns me up that my insurance company presumes to know more about what I need than my doctor.  However, insurance does not exist to pay for everything under the sun. It offers protection in the event of a catastrophic medical occurance. Yes, it&#039;s imperfect. Yes, it&#039;s unfair sometimes. Yes, it has it&#039;s crazy loopholes, exclusions, limitations etc. Yes, people sometimes find themselves the victims of insurance greed and stupidity.   As long as imperfect human beings are in policy-making positions nothing will ever be perfectly designed.   Having or not having children regardless of the reasons is viewed as a &quot;lifestyle&quot; and not a &quot;medical&quot; circumstance or choice.  I am not saying I agree with this. (I wrote a post about it once a long time ago).  Not having good tires on your car could lead to a fatal accident. But car insurance does not pay for tires, nor car washes, nor oil changes.   Forgive the comparison...I know it falls woefully short.   Insurance was not meant to enhance or improve our lives.  It was meant to protect us in the event of a catastrophe or prevent astronomical future claims.   With regards to gastric bypass surgery for obesity.  This surgery was once covered routinely. It&#039;s expensive, risky and not always successful. The insurance carriers had to weigh the benefits, risks and expense.  In the past I have helped a handful of clients successfully get this surgery approved for coverage only to have one of them die from complications.  A couple of others had complications that sent them to the ICU. Many patients suffer from malnutrition afterwards and lose their teeth and/or hair.  It is a very risky, expensive surgery and not a sure fire cure for obesity.  Ultimately most carriers decided to stop covering it.  If infertility treatments were covered by insurance I&#039;d be the first in line.  I do however, understand why they are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post and the comments that follow were all very interesting.   Working in the insurance industry (but not for an insurance company!) I see all the time where  certain treatments are not covered until other treatments and methods are tried first.  This often results in expense , time off work, loss of productivity and use of valuable resources  only to circle back to the original recommended treatment. It burns me up that my insurance company presumes to know more about what I need than my doctor.  However, insurance does not exist to pay for everything under the sun. It offers protection in the event of a catastrophic medical occurance. Yes, it&#8217;s imperfect. Yes, it&#8217;s unfair sometimes. Yes, it has it&#8217;s crazy loopholes, exclusions, limitations etc. Yes, people sometimes find themselves the victims of insurance greed and stupidity.   As long as imperfect human beings are in policy-making positions nothing will ever be perfectly designed.   Having or not having children regardless of the reasons is viewed as a &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; and not a &#8220;medical&#8221; circumstance or choice.  I am not saying I agree with this. (I wrote a post about it once a long time ago).  Not having good tires on your car could lead to a fatal accident. But car insurance does not pay for tires, nor car washes, nor oil changes.   Forgive the comparison&#8230;I know it falls woefully short.   Insurance was not meant to enhance or improve our lives.  It was meant to protect us in the event of a catastrophe or prevent astronomical future claims.   With regards to gastric bypass surgery for obesity.  This surgery was once covered routinely. It&#8217;s expensive, risky and not always successful. The insurance carriers had to weigh the benefits, risks and expense.  In the past I have helped a handful of clients successfully get this surgery approved for coverage only to have one of them die from complications.  A couple of others had complications that sent them to the ICU. Many patients suffer from malnutrition afterwards and lose their teeth and/or hair.  It is a very risky, expensive surgery and not a sure fire cure for obesity.  Ultimately most carriers decided to stop covering it.  If infertility treatments were covered by insurance I&#8217;d be the first in line.  I do however, understand why they are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Bea</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55698</link>
		<dc:creator>Bea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55698</guid>
		<description>(From Missy:)

&quot;A couple of thoughts. First, about covering IF through a rider. This won’t work. The fact is, most people in the US get their insurance coverage through their employer, where you either take what is offered or don’t. There is no option to get a rider for an additional disease or procedure should you need it in the future.&quot;

This is true.  It is a good example of where the free market *should* be allowed to prevail, in that people should be able to choose a level/type of cover that suits them as an individual.  For eg, I do think an opt-out/in for infertility or maternity is a good idea, also people could choose different levels of copay to share the risk according to their financial priorities/level of cash flow/taste for risk, or they could *gasp* even choose a company by themselves, like they do for other types of insurance.  This whole take-what-you&#039;re-given stuff is rubbish.  So is the shop-for-a-job-with-insurance-that-suits stuff.  People should be working where they work best.  The insurance system should allow this.

(This is kind of a side point - really, there are strong arguments for bundling infertility with maternity cover.  First of all, it&#039;s fair, although I have no problem with splitting it up and allowing opt-in/opt-out for the infertility part if the company wants to do the paperwork for a $2/yr difference in premium to keep customers who feel that damned strongly about it happy, as long as the individual policy holder gets to choose, not the employer.  But there&#039;s also an economic argument - if you cover maternity, but not infertility, you are going to pay for it in NICU bills and people are going to die, because you promote risk-taking behaviour.  You can re-balance this risk by bundling both together.  No infertility - no maternity.  Maternity - and infertility.)  

Of course, Missy is right that free market theory assumes rational choices, and people fall short of that.  But to some extent people do generally respond in certain, arguably rational ways to various situations and incentives, and to that extent it does still have a useful (limited) role to play in constructing a health care system.  Letting patients choose their insurer, their level/type of cover, and their doctor puts the free market to good, efficient use.  Making patients pay out of pocket for specific, arbitrarily-chosen conditions whilst covering other conditions is missing something somewhere.

Bea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(From Missy:)</p>
<p>&#8220;A couple of thoughts. First, about covering IF through a rider. This won’t work. The fact is, most people in the US get their insurance coverage through their employer, where you either take what is offered or don’t. There is no option to get a rider for an additional disease or procedure should you need it in the future.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is true.  It is a good example of where the free market *should* be allowed to prevail, in that people should be able to choose a level/type of cover that suits them as an individual.  For eg, I do think an opt-out/in for infertility or maternity is a good idea, also people could choose different levels of copay to share the risk according to their financial priorities/level of cash flow/taste for risk, or they could *gasp* even choose a company by themselves, like they do for other types of insurance.  This whole take-what-you&#8217;re-given stuff is rubbish.  So is the shop-for-a-job-with-insurance-that-suits stuff.  People should be working where they work best.  The insurance system should allow this.</p>
<p>(This is kind of a side point &#8211; really, there are strong arguments for bundling infertility with maternity cover.  First of all, it&#8217;s fair, although I have no problem with splitting it up and allowing opt-in/opt-out for the infertility part if the company wants to do the paperwork for a $2/yr difference in premium to keep customers who feel that damned strongly about it happy, as long as the individual policy holder gets to choose, not the employer.  But there&#8217;s also an economic argument &#8211; if you cover maternity, but not infertility, you are going to pay for it in NICU bills and people are going to die, because you promote risk-taking behaviour.  You can re-balance this risk by bundling both together.  No infertility &#8211; no maternity.  Maternity &#8211; and infertility.)  </p>
<p>Of course, Missy is right that free market theory assumes rational choices, and people fall short of that.  But to some extent people do generally respond in certain, arguably rational ways to various situations and incentives, and to that extent it does still have a useful (limited) role to play in constructing a health care system.  Letting patients choose their insurer, their level/type of cover, and their doctor puts the free market to good, efficient use.  Making patients pay out of pocket for specific, arbitrarily-chosen conditions whilst covering other conditions is missing something somewhere.</p>
<p>Bea</p>
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		<title>By: Missy</title>
		<link>http://www.stirrup-queens.com/2010/03/should-insurance-companies-fund-fertility-treatments/comment-page-1/#comment-55697</link>
		<dc:creator>Missy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 02:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stirrup-queens.com/?p=4703#comment-55697</guid>
		<description>A couple of thoughts. First, about covering IF through a rider. This won&#039;t work. The fact is, most people in the US get their insurance coverage through their employer, where you either take what is offered or don&#039;t. There is no option to get a rider for an additional disease or procedure should you need it in the future.

Second, the problem with assuming that the free market will take care of assigning our limited resources to our priorities is that the efficient market theory assumes that people are rational actors. We are not. We make irrational decisions all the time (just look at how great the market was for assigning risk to sub-prime mortgages). There is an entire field of behavorial economics devoted to how people do not actually behave in ways that support the idea that the market knows best.

Third, the argument that some diseases are deserved and who gets to decide which those are reminds me of something a college professor told me. He studied the increasing presence of learning disabilities in the past few decades and how it is linked to income levels. In short, children who are low achieving and poor are considered slow or not very smart. Children who are low achieving and rich are labeled learning disabled. Likewise, high achieving poor kids are labeled hard-working while high achieving rich kids are labeled gifted. 

How you perceive &quot;deserving-ness&quot; and the labels you give to people are influenced by where you sit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of thoughts. First, about covering IF through a rider. This won&#8217;t work. The fact is, most people in the US get their insurance coverage through their employer, where you either take what is offered or don&#8217;t. There is no option to get a rider for an additional disease or procedure should you need it in the future.</p>
<p>Second, the problem with assuming that the free market will take care of assigning our limited resources to our priorities is that the efficient market theory assumes that people are rational actors. We are not. We make irrational decisions all the time (just look at how great the market was for assigning risk to sub-prime mortgages). There is an entire field of behavorial economics devoted to how people do not actually behave in ways that support the idea that the market knows best.</p>
<p>Third, the argument that some diseases are deserved and who gets to decide which those are reminds me of something a college professor told me. He studied the increasing presence of learning disabilities in the past few decades and how it is linked to income levels. In short, children who are low achieving and poor are considered slow or not very smart. Children who are low achieving and rich are labeled learning disabled. Likewise, high achieving poor kids are labeled hard-working while high achieving rich kids are labeled gifted. </p>
<p>How you perceive &#8220;deserving-ness&#8221; and the labels you give to people are influenced by where you sit.</p>
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